[PGT] Flames beat Montreal, 3-1!

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Sorry, but this is a blatant example of: people see what they want to see. The two bolded comments contradict each other, by the way.

Did you say all those things? Yes, somewhere in the dozens and dozens of posts you made, criticizing people for criticizing Ward. Sorry, but for you to be claiming vindication right now is... well, you do you, I guess.

First of all, it was not a serious post. But if you want me to be me, I was never against criticism of Ward. I did my own. I always said that I wasn’t happy with his hire. What I criticized was blame for things that were not what he was coaching, or for things that were just not apparent in his “system”. Like dump and chase. Ward never coached that, it was obviously so, and it was annoying to see people say it. I always said he was failing as a coach to get buy in.

What’s funny is a lot of the people claiming vindication about Ward were blaming things in Ward’s “system” which haven’t changed - Sutter has just managed to get the players to execute properly. Which was always the problem.

As for my many posts where I can find these things, you are right, I can find them. because they are there a lot.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Bingo

No more turn overs at the bluelines.

Players are clearly making % decisions carrying the puck now.

But the big thing is the high F3 allowing the dmen to pinch at will creating a lot of zone time.

There is nothing boring about that ... it's high pressure hockey.

Really nobody outside of Calgary is happy Darryl is back behind the Flames bench. The opposition knows that they are going to have to work their bags off to compete with the Flames. No more of this getting out on them early and coasting to easy wins. Opposition media and fans can spin the boring angle but the reality is that they realize the teams they cover/cheer for are no longer guaranteed of a playoff spot as the Flames are going to be a factor in the North Division playoff race.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Really nobody outside of Calgary is happy Darryl is back behind the Flames bench. The opposition knows that they are going to have to work their bags off to compete with the Flames. No more of this getting out on them early and coasting to easy wins. Opposition media and fans can spin the boring angle but the reality is that they realize the teams they cover/cheer for are no longer guaranteed of a playoff spot as the Flames are going to be a factor in the North Division playoff race.

I don’t find that hockey boring at all. It’s not a trapping system. It’s a smart forecheck, which is fun, it’s a physical style, which is fun, and the puck is turned up ice quickly, which is fun.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Really nobody outside of Calgary is happy Darryl is back behind the Flames bench. The opposition knows that they are going to have to work their bags off to compete with the Flames. No more of this getting out on them early and coasting to easy wins. Opposition media and fans can spin the boring angle but the reality is that they realize the teams they cover/cheer for are no longer guaranteed of a playoff spot as the Flames are going to be a factor in the North Division playoff race.

Everyone should read that in a Independence Day Bill Pullman voice

[Roof-Daddy]

Lol

Yeah, it is boring watching your team get smothered by their opponent isn't it?

[Stud_McCool]

I know it sounds cliché, but the biggest thing is they're building an identity now. Every player has a role and play the same way.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by Bingo

I think it's possible to see it both ways.

I never advocated for not firing Ward. I didn't after the bubble on our radio bit, and I haven't on the forum.

Honestly I wasn't pushing for it because I thought it unlikely they'd bring in an upgrade in a pandemic with the quarantine etc. I thought it was Ward or Huska for the season.

So elated with the boost in coaching for sure, but that doesn't mean I have to love this core or think they're absolved for not preparing themselves and competing within the system for either of the previous two coaches.

To me it’s not that, though. What exactly is ‘preparing yourself’?

When only 2 or 3 of 5 guys are in the right place on the ice, for example, you are more likely to be exposed. It’s that attention to detail that the coach has to instill. Players can’t prepare themselves to make the other 2-3 guys do their jobs. There has to be someone championing the messsge of what all 5 guys should be doing and for accountability to each other. Players can’t do that alone as individuals

There are the issues of each player knowing his role, and of developing chemistry. When the only tool in the toolbox is a blender, how do players prepare for inevitable uncertainty?

Then there is accountability. The old coach was more interested in sending a message to his poster boy, Bennett, than to, for example, Tkachuk.

Systems wise, that passive low pressure D zone structure does not lead to good results

The old coach was a bad head coach, and I have to believe it’s tough for players to ‘prepare’ themselves when there are so many things concurrently going wrong.

That’s where leadership is needed.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

To me it’s not that, though. What exactly is ‘preparing yourself’?

When only 2 or 3 of 5 guys are in the right place on the ice, for example, you are more likely to be exposed. It’s that attention to detail that the coach has to instill. Players can’t prepare themselves to make the other 2-3 guys do their jobs. There has to be someone championing the messsge of what all 5 guys should be doing and for accountability to each other. Players can’t do that alone as individuals

There are the issues of each player knowing his role, and of developing chemistry. When the only tool in the toolbox is a blender, how do players prepare for inevitable uncertainty?

Then there is accountability. The old coach was more interested in sending a message to his poster boy, Bennett, than to, for example, Tkachuk.

Systems wise, that passive low pressure D zone structure does not lead to good results

The old coach was a bad head coach, and I have to believe it’s tough for players to ‘prepare’ themselves when there are so many things concurrently going wrong.

That’s where leadership is needed.

No coach would ask his players to do any of the following ...

1) Take high percentage risks without support
2) Skate away from the puck backwards in the high slot and then one hand it when it finally comes to you
3) To literally check no one in your own zone
4) To back in on your goaltender
5) To not back check creating wide gaps

Stajan said it best ... it's not work ethic. They were all working hard, but they weren't on their toes, they weren't working smart. They didn't have themselves ready to play.

Sutter is a huge add to the mix, because he scares the hell out of players, so it's no longer allowed to not be ready, and they all take that seriously. So sure that's part of coaching, and Ward didn't scare the hell out of them.

But that doesn't change the fact that almost to a man they all too often didn't show up ready to play.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Sutter is a huge add to the mix, because he scares the hell out of players

I think the players were a lot more scared of the consequences of Ward's baffling decisions than anything Sutter has or will do.

Sutter doesn't have any more "power" than Ward or Peters or Gulutzan.

The players are not "scared" of accountability either.

Maybe the improvements have to do with more clear direction, a better approach to practice time, and a general instillment of confidence in his ability.

I think it's completely unfair to the players to say they're "scared" of the coach.

They look as excited to play for him as we do to watch his team.

[djsFlames]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Really nobody outside of Calgary is happy Darryl is back behind the Flames bench. The opposition knows that they are going to have to work their bags off to compete with the Flames. No more of this getting out on them early and coasting to easy wins. Opposition media and fans can spin the boring angle but the reality is that they realize the teams they cover/cheer for are no longer guaranteed of a playoff spot as the Flames are going to be a factor in the North Division playoff race.

I think that's exactly why all the hate and farfetched takes on a coach that has won twice in the last decade and isn't even old on the spectrum of NHL coaches.

Darryl has stated more than once he's only here to wring everything he can out of this team to capture another cup. He's going to use his whole bag of tricks and be pushing the guys start to finish every game. Its a 'win now' situation for him.

Two points will have to be earned here on out and the complexion of the race has pretty well changed overnight.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Bingo

No coach would ask his players to do any of the following ...

1) Take high percentage risks without support
2) Skate away from the puck backwards in the high slot and then one hand it when it finally comes to you
3) To literally check no one in your own zone
4) To back in on your goaltender
5) To not back check creating wide gaps

Stajan said it best ... it's not work ethic. They were all working hard, but they weren't on their toes, they weren't working smart. They didn't have themselves ready to play.

Sutter is a huge add to the mix, because he scares the hell out of players, so it's no longer allowed to not be ready, and they all take that seriously. So sure that's part of coaching, and Ward didn't scare the hell out of them.

But that doesn't change the fact that almost to a man they all too often didn't show up ready to play.

Yes, I agree with all that. (Except there were actually situations where players would back away from the puck to get to a 'place' - it happened every game so it was definitely coming from the coaching staff.)

But where the disagreement lies, is that you feel that it is on the players to be ready to play, and to play on their toes. However, I think that is easy to say, but if you don't believe, if you are confused as to what your role is, if you are consistently frustrated by bad play and mounting losses, it is human nature to lose energy, to be emotionally defeated, to make mistakes.

IMO, when everyone is failing, it is an environmental problem. And the coach is ultimately responsible for that. And most of all, he had NO answers when it came to solving any of the issues.

When the entire team doesn't come ready to play, night after night, there has to be an external problem. They are professional athletes and have all come 'ready to play', since they were teenagers.

It isn't that they are scared of Sutter - that won't lead to success. It is that he communicates their roles to them well, and sets them up for success - and holds them accountable. In other words, he is doing the things that the head coach needs to do - and guess what? It seems to be working! And has worked everywhere he has coached.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

I think the players were a lot more scared of the consequences of Ward's baffling decisions than anything Sutter has or will do.

Sutter doesn't have any more "power" than Ward or Peters or Gulutzan.

The players are not "scared" of accountability either.

Maybe the improvements have to do with more clear direction, a better approach to practice time, and a general instillment of confidence in his ability.

I think it's completely unfair to the players to say they're "scared" of the coach.

They look as excited to play for him as we do to watch his team.

You don't think Sutter intimidates hockey players? Look it up.

I'd say Sutter has a lot more power than any of the other coaches that have come through here ... his track record and style of communication pretty much guarantee it.

They to a man wanted Ward back after the bubble remember. So I'm guessing they didn't hate his direction, practices or ability to build confidence then.

Look I'm not saying this was a bad move, or that it isn't a huge upgrade.

But that doesn't excuse the players for playing listless hockey that no coach of timbit hockey or above would direct.

[DazzlinDino]

Really like how Sutter holds the leadership group to a higher standard. If someone takes a night off they are in the dog house. That leadership group can't take turns taking nights off now that the coach has seen them play the right way.

What this team really needed was a "leader" and now we have that. Hopefully the coach will rotate some players and keep them fresh because it is going to be a long haul to the Cup!

[dammage79]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

I guess it could be less fun for players, but I strongly disagree with the notion that it is less entertaining for fans. Sutter's teams have historically been quick thinking/reacting, good at transitions, relentlessly fore-checking, and dominant in possession. I guess it could be less entertaining when the other team rarely ever has the puck, but that is just a silly complaint in the end.


Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk

Now I didn't say it was boring to watch did I?

It's meat and potatoes hockey. Full speed simple North South hockey. From a fan perspective I fully believe we all agree its far more entertaining hockey to watch than what we have been watching.

From a player perspective it has to be more boring to boil your respective games down to their simplest forms and execute at 100 percent instead of executing pretty and creative plays at 50 percent. Add in the effort you have to give to just execute simple hockey to it fullest potential and yeah, it's about as exciting as watching paint dry. Sutters not here to help the players paint a Picasso but to paint a fence properly.

Either way, my main point was he is implanting a brand of hockey that wins championships. That's how it's done and there will be no deviation.

I certainly don't think what we have seen the last two games boring not in the slightest.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Bingo

You don't think Sutter intimidates hockey players? Look it up.

Millionaire Athletes on guarunteed contracts?

Did Sutter intimidate the Kings when they mutinied on him?

I'd say Sutter has a lot more power than any of the other coaches that have come through here ... his track record and style of communication pretty much guarantee it.

You're confusing effectiveness with power.

Glen Gulutzan, Bill Peters, and Geoff Ward all had power.

Their choice to not exercise that power on time to the betterment of the team, is their failing as coaches. Peters not benching James Neal until game 6, when he was #### ALL SEASON? That was not on the core of this team. That was on Bill Peters.

They to a man wanted Ward back after the bubble remember. So I'm guessing they didn't hate his direction, practices or ability to build confidence then.

Who said anything about hating those things?

I'm sure they loved his direction and practices because it was easy.

But loving it, and finding it effective, are two different things.

The team was not very good in the bubble. They barely beat a 9th seed and got their ass handed to them by Dallas.

The team was not very good prior to the bubble under Ward.

These are facts.

But that doesn't excuse the players for playing listless hockey that no coach of timbit hockey or above would direct.

When you have all 18+ skaters playing "listless" hockey, it's got nothing to do with the five or six players who represent the "core".

Blaming the players is the easy way out, because it's easy to call them lazy and heartless and prisoners running the asylum.

It's easy to do that.

But they want to win too, and they sure as #### didn't WANT to put out those listless performances.

The fear of Darryl Sutter did not make them suddenly WANT to start playing hard.

These are millionaire athletes with guaranteed contracts. They don't fear coaches, benchings, trades. And in the year 2021, they can get a coach fired with a basic tweet if it comes down to it.

[AC]

Originally Posted by Yamer

Re: Kylington

For those that missed it, in the post-game interviews Ryan Huska talked about how since Tuesday it has felt like a complete reset in the locker room and he specifically named Kylington as a player that "feels like he has a new lease on life".

This may just be the tip of the iceberg for this guy. A type of player with every tool you want in today's game. Exciting.

I also found Kylington's post-game interview really interesting when asked about the changes made by Sutter so far at about 2:10:


"I think he wants everyone to be a part of it. He's really honest and demanding and I think everyone really listens and chips in. I think it's really good how guys take that into themselves and really chip in and play good hockey to win games. I think he made a change, you know with our attitude to our play, and I think we're really showing that we can be a great team and win against any team in this league."

Then later:
"Obviously it starts with belief, for sure. I think everyone needs to believe but you need to do the work on a day-to-day basis and I think it starts with our practices. It's high pace, we play with high pace. We're moving pucks quick, I think everyone knows what to do with the puck before you get it, and I think that's how you need to play. And I think everyone knows what their role is and what they need to do, and structure is there."

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

Millionaire Athletes on guarunteed contracts?

Did Sutter intimidate the Kings when they mutinied on him?

These are millionaire athletes with guaranteed contracts. They don't fear coaches, benchings, trades. And in the year 2021, they can get a coach fired with a basic tweet if it comes down to it.

But this is it, isn’t it. By virtue of his rep and what Treliving has said, this is not true of Sutter.

And in LA, it took a few years for the mutiny, such that it was, and it took guys like Doughty becoming huge stars.

[Hey Connor, It's Mess]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Really nobody outside of Calgary is happy Darryl is back behind the Flames bench. The opposition knows that they are going to have to work their bags off to compete with the Flames. No more of this getting out on them early and coasting to easy wins. Opposition media and fans can spin the boring angle but the reality is that they realize the teams they cover/cheer for are no longer guaranteed of a playoff spot as the Flames are going to be a factor in the North Division playoff race.

Seeing the anti-Sutter slant almost immediately from Toronto/Sportsnet media had me grinning. "Has the game evolved and left Sutter behind?" No, but the Flames are about to leave a lot of teams behind in the standings!

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by Bingo

No coach would ask his players to do any of the following ...

1) Take high percentage risks without support
2) Skate away from the puck backwards in the high slot and then one hand it when it finally comes to you
3) To literally check no one in your own zone
4) To back in on your goaltender
5) To not back check creating wide gaps

Stajan said it best ... it's not work ethic. They were all working hard, but they weren't on their toes, they weren't working smart. They didn't have themselves ready to play.

Sutter is a huge add to the mix, because he scares the hell out of players, so it's no longer allowed to not be ready, and they all take that seriously. So sure that's part of coaching, and Ward didn't scare the hell out of them.

But that doesn't change the fact that almost to a man they all too often didn't show up ready to play.

I think we more or less agree on most points, certainly that they did often have work ethic and were not working smart.

As for your points 3 and 4, I don’t fully agree, as some coaches are fine giving the other team the outside, and prioritize protecting the area from which high danger chances occur. That sure seemed like it was either encouraged or accepted by Ward

Even if Ward didn’t outright teach bad habits and lack of attention to detail, he surely tolerated it.

When the team was trying to carry the puck up the left side boards and Tanev was dilly dallying by the goalie, was that not being ready to play, or a bad idea with a 5th skater who didn’t think he needed to find open ice and add an option?

When Rasmus beats 3 guys, stops at the blue line and passes back 100 feet to Johnny in his own zone for Johnny to go 1 on 4, that wasn’t guys ‘not being prepared’. It was guys who were doing something futile, without doing it the right way to make it work.

I just find the idea of ‘not being prepared’ (as players / individuals) to be somewhat trite and not very meaningful

Totally agree that the team wasn’t prepared but I do not feel like the message coming from the coach to was very clear. If it had been, you wouldn’t see such an immediate and noticeable difference under Sutter

The job of the coach is to help make every player clear on what the team is doing and what they have to do within that as individuals. Geoff Ward could have told them to be ready to go, but if he thinks that you make people ready by telling them to be ready, he doesn’t get it

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

But this is it, isn’t it. By virtue of his rep and what Treliving has said, this is not true of Sutter.

Big deal.

The players can still choose to not play hard for Sutter. If a Monahan or a Tkachuk don't like what Sutter is selling, they have all the power to get themselves traded. They don't care if the Calgary Flames lose Sean Monahan, the Calgary Flames care if the Calgary Flames lose Sean Monahan.

But there's the thing.

This idea that the players - the core - just tune out the coaches is just sensationalism.

They do buy what Sutter is selling, and it's got nothing to do with fear.