[PGT] Jets 3 Flames 2

[Wastedyouth]

Originally Posted by slcrocket

You guys are fun. Holy hell, I used to come to the PGT to get people's thoughts on the game. I didn't realize that every ####ing game is a way to sum up the season and career of each player involved.

I know that this is how the internet works, but I thought this place was better in the past. I might be misremembering. If Lucic is able to calm that puck down and get it in when it's 2-2, it's highly likely this place looks like it did after Game 1. Like we are the greatest thing that ever happened. But apparently that play also made Tkachuk a fourth liner, Monahan a waste of space, and made evident a clear need to blow up the core of the team. Clearly I don't understand hockey like the majority of you must.

No more PGTs for me for a while - I'm just going to watch the games.

This.

This thread is a dumpster fire of irrational thought and conclusion jumping.

Worse than Twitter, and that's a pretty stunning indictment, in my opinion.

[868904]

Originally Posted by midniteowl

I have a question, an honest question. Is Hall a complimentary player? Size and speed is what every team want, if Monahan and Gaudreau are so bad, how can the Flames trade them for size and speed? Again, honest questions.

Hall is not a complimentary player. He's a few years removed from a Hart Trophy.

He has size and speed and skill, exactly what this team needs in the top 6.

I never said Monahan and Gaudreau are "so bad". I'm saying the mix in the top 6 is not right.

I picked Monahan and Gaudreau as potential guys to move because:

- Tkachuk while slow, is a power forward and you need that type of player for playoff success;
- I've already touched on Lindholm and Backlund;
- Mangiapane will still be on a cheap contract;
- Gaudreau is also closest to UFA status.

You might not get a top 6 forward with size/speed/skill for Gaudreau straight up so you might need Monahan in the deal too.

I'm saying essentially you replace Gaudreau and Monahan with Hall and another player that has that size/speed/skill combination.

Who that player is, I really don't know. They aren't usually available, which is why the Flames need to go after Hall hard in the Summer.

Maybe the Rangers will move Zibanajed after a quiet playoff for the chance to land a ticket selling American like Gaudreau?

Maybe Lou pisses off Barzal in the negotiations and he asks out (pipe dream of course)?

Maybe Penguins feel the time is right to dump Malkin?

Or maybe you just sign Hall and keep both Gaudreau and Monahan and run with youngsters on defense.

Or you sign Hall and only trade one of Gaudreau or Monahan for young assets.

Either way, signing Hall should be a priority and acquiring another top 6 forward with size and skill is the other. Probably even moreso than signing another right side top 4 defenceman, because we've had a great defense core for years and it hasn't made a difference.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Which is why i'm saying you change the core.
I think 3 years ago no one would have questioned building around this group.
Now we know that isn't going to work.

But we're not discovering that just now. The motivation/heart problems on this core have been presenting for a while now. Sticking by the players that need to be changed too long is a GM problem. Whether that's exasperated by ownership (which I think is a safe assumption) is another thing.

Stability is fantastic, when it's earned.

[tvp2003]

Originally Posted by djsFlames

Who do you guys want to see draw in for Rinaldo?

Czarnik, but there is zero chance of that happening. Rinaldo brings energy but they were hemmed in a few times and did little 5-on-5. If they aren’t going to wear teams down with wave after wave on the forecheck, then it’s just Rinaldo out there trying throw the body and start scrums. Which isn’t very effective.

Jankowski is the more reliable defender, but I’m not afraid of the Jets offence right now. Instead we need to generate more pressure on Hellebuyck, especially when the power play is garbage like it has been.

EDIT: someone else suggested Quine. I’d be good with that.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by mrdonkey

Isn't that part of what a coach is supposed to do?

Players need to find what works for themselves in getting ready mentally.

Coaches give them the X's and O's and try to put each guy in a position to succeed, but as far as being ready to compete? That's on the players. These arent 16 year old kids, these are adults who have performed at the highest levels of their vocation for years...no one guy can be responsible for the mind set of 20 different personalities.

The players as a collective are, by far, the single biggest problem with the Flames and their playoff woes.

Managers have changed, head coaches have changed, assistant coaches have changed, yet this core has stayed together and repeatedly come up with the same issues year after year. What does that tell you?

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by djsFlames

They can (eliminate the egregious ones) if they skate away from scrums without taking a cheap shot

That, at least, is in their control.

That’s fair.

I would like to see the stripes call Winnipeg for interference, high hits, and hooks

Unfortunately that is something they can’t control

[Table 5]

Originally Posted by TheScorpion

Eh that's not really true. The last time they hired a league-renowned coach, they got Brent. It doesn't always work out.

Nice try, but a coach with 2 previous years of NHL experience doesn't count. He may have been seen as an up-and-comer, but he wasn't a coach with a proven long-term track record of winning in the league. If he was, he'd have gotten a chance after Calgary.

[savardandjokinen]

Can we do Czarnik-Ryan-Rieder next game please

[Manhattanboy]

Best of three against a depleted Jets team with their all star goalie playing average.

Any takers? Anyone? Bueller? Bueller?

[kurwamac]

Pretty stupid penalty by Mangiapane at the end, nice priorities genius.

Reider's out next game for me. He could barely skate.

Gustaffson was pretty sloppy too, he could have made plays but decided to go with making turn overs in our end.
I'm not a Forbot fan either - see Reider.

[djsFlames]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

That’s fair.

I would like to see the stripes call Winnipeg for interference, high hits, and hooks

Unfortunately that is something they can’t control

Sadly, that is true.....

[TheScorpion]

Originally Posted by Table 5

Nice try, but a coach with 2 previous years of NHL experience doesn't count. He may have been seen as an up and comer, but he wasn't coach with a proven track record. If he was, he'd have gotten a chance after Calgary.

Yeah but still they paid huge cash to get Brent. He was in very high demand after his tenure with the Devils. He was at the peak of his rep and the Flames paid up to get him.

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Managers have changed, head coaches have changed, assistant coaches have changed, yet this core has stayed together and repeatedly come up with the same issues year after year. What does that tell you?

That we have the wrong core.

You know what it doesn't say though? That we have a good coach. Hell, again - we don't even have a head coach. We have an interim Head Coach. Hopefully Tree finally gets it right this off-season.

[Roof-Daddy]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Which is why i'm saying you change the core.
I think 3 years ago no one would have questioned building around this group.
Now we know that isn't going to work.

Exactly.

...and not only is this core not likely going to win anything, the team isn't built properly anyways, with weak center depth and an aging #1 Dman with no real replacement in place. Plus, they are cap strapped and that's only going to get worse with a flat cap for 3 years and Gaudreau and Tkachuk both needing big raises in two years, and that's if Gaudreau doesn't just walk away for nothing.

If Treliving is smart, he should tear this core apart, AND take on dead salary. The individual pieces are still valuable trade wise, and if you also take dead money back you probably get a pile of really good rebuilding pieces. Three years of pain and hopefully come back with a team that has strong center depth, an elite Dman to build around and some other good pieces too.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by TheScorpion

Yeah but still they paid huge cash to get Brent. He was in very high demand after his tenure with the Devils. He was at the peak of his rep and the Flames paid up to get him.

It was during his tenure, no? Didn’t he bail on Jersey?

Am I misremembering that?

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

The real problem is that Gaudreau shouldn’t be the one constantly trying to make things happen. Same goes for Tkachuk. The Flames‘ best playmakers are their wingers which doesn’t generally translate into the playoffs.

Monahan needs to start carrying the play more, drawing double teams for his 2 wingers like a #1 center normally does. We saw this with Gaudreau and MacKinnon in the world cup. When Gaudreau has the time to make plays, he can be extremely dangerous. But when he’s constantly the one expected to do it all, it’s predictable to defend. The same thing happened to Iggy, it’s happening with Gaudreau now and it’ll happen with Tkachuk.

Rinse and repeat.

Monahan can do it too.

He had a couple of strong entries today where he made good passes to Lindholm and Gaudreau in space. He just needs to find some confidence again and trust himself to be able to make those plays.

[Joborule]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Hire GM
Get impatient with GM
Fire GM

Rinse and repeat.

It's worked so well for this franchise let's continue it!

Those players he inherited are precisely the ones not showing up (Except Backlund).

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

The character of the team has been weak under 3 coaches.
Maybe it's their actual character.
Edit: Actually 4 coaches. Though Hartley got something out of the group, they then tuned him out.

Doesn't that circle back to the GM though? He's the one that has assembled a team with weak character, that hasn't had a coach that can yield desired results.

5 years is plenty enough time to see the vision that was originally pitched, see panned out. If the team is still rudderless after 5 years, that's on the GM.

I'm not on the fire Treliving train. But I don't think he can be considered a good GM due to the lack of results from the franchise up to this point. You gotta have some level of sustained playoff success (making it year in, year out, and advancing past the first round often enough).

If there isn't strong evidence/belief that the team will become at the least a solid enough team to have playoff run potential within the next two to three years, then gotta question if Treliving should stick around for more years of mediocracy, hoping that he'll finally assembles a roster that turns it around, or you give the opportunity to someone else. Wasting potential years of success due to inaction is not a recipe for success. It's on Treliving to prove that he's worth keeping around and will get the results, rather than holding on to him for the sake of holding on.

[Dion]

Mt beef with the Flames is the total lack of discipline in the third period. After killing the Jest 2 man advantage I thought that would be the turning point for the Flames. Nope! The penalty by Mangipane cost them.

They played okay but not at the level of 2 days ago. They had trouble winning faceoffs on the PP and seemed to be playing like the Jets were going to fold after the loss of their 2 top forwards.

[Toonage]

Better win tomorrow. Looks like game 4 will be another 12:30 start

[ComixZone]

Is anyone actually arguing that we should keep the core together going forward? It's fatally structured (you can't fix poor centre depth without drafting high end centres), and a deeply disturbing compete-level issue.

This off-season is a good time for a reset. We don't have a head coach under contract, and we have some significant assets that we could kick off a new build of the team with.