Alberta students to define their own gender

[chemgear]

Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger

It seems like it's not uncommon to come up with a bunch of random far fetched hypotheticals and discuss them ad nauseum.

Kinda like how people against gay marriage used to bring up ridiculous crap like it would hypothetically lead to bestiality, marriage with your pet hamster, and animal sacrifices?

[Cecil Terwilliger]

Not really like that at all, actually. I don't think anyone is against 12 year old susie being called jimmy and using a private washroom or to identify as a boy just because they talked about Lebron James joining the WNBA.

Frankly I'm amazed that you were able to somehow relate those two.

[peter12]

The real issue is still not being talked about.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by chemgear

Kinda like how people against gay marriage used to bring up ridiculous crap like it would hypothetically lead to bestiality, marriage with your pet hamster, and animal sacrifices?

What a wonderfully and ridiculously over the top un-related statement.

[GGG]

At the high school level which is where this initiative applies no one is going pretend to be transgendered to be on a team. So you can get rid of all of those fake cases.

So really we are talking about transgendered people wanting to participate and since high school athletics should not be first focused on winning a policy of inclusion makes sense. So if one girl is cut because a transgendered person is on the team I think that is reasonable accommodation.

We are looking at .3% ish of the pop so less than 1 kid per school. Its a non issue

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by GGG

We are looking at .3% ish of the pop so less than 1 kid per school. Its a non issue

In practical terms, yes. As a virtue-testing issue, it's gold.

[pylon]

Some of you seem to think that not supporting trans-gendered athletes (specifically biological men wishing to compete as women) is the same as not supporting the trans-gender community. The two are not mutually exclusive.

I have absolutely no issue with the trans gendered community. I spent a lot of energy defending Caitlyn Jenner's decision to some people in my circle that were being complete ass-hats about it. That being said, had Caitlyn made the decision to change gender identity while she was a competing Olympian, she should have had to compete as a man. Because regardless of what her brain is telling her. Scientifically, and biologically, she still has the body of a man. Period. Not a scientist or doctor on the face of the earth would argue otherwise.

The ability to compete in a scenario which could provide a massive unfair advantage, is a entirely different argument, than the denying their gender identity. The two arguments aren't even connected. In competition you have tiers, divisions, and leagues specifically set up based on skill level, age, and gender. And the reason we have the gender separation is for the obvious physical advantages boys/men have over women.

Anyone who doesn't think these rules will eventually be gamed by some jerk college coach, or countries like Russia and China who basically cheat their way to every single medal they win? Not only would they recruit every single trans gendered person they could, they would likely recruit families to force boys into hormone therapy to breed an army of super-womens competitors. If you don't think this stuff would start to happen, you're naive. Because it absolutely would. There were questions and accusations with the Chinese women's swim team a couple years back that this exact thing was happening if I recall. Once there is money, and medals on the line, some people would do anything to game the system, even here in North America. Lastly, it would breed a whole new era of PED's. Because the hormone therapy from going from female to male, would basically put testosterone levels right through the roof, and now what? Do you have the right to deny the competitor the right to compete because their test level is that of a IFBB body builder? These are amateur sport examples, not professional sports examples. And it is a fair and valid argument. It would muddy the integrity of the sports.

[polak]

Originally Posted by GGG

At the high school level which is where this initiative applies no one is going pretend to be transgendered to be on a team. So you can get rid of all of those fake cases.

So really we are talking about transgendered people wanting to participate and since high school athletics should not be first focused on winning a policy of inclusion makes sense. So if one girl is cut because a transgendered person is on the team I think that is reasonable accommodation.

We are looking at .3% ish of the pop so less than 1 kid per school. Its a non issue

How the #### is that fair?

The trans gendered kid's feelings are more important than the girl who got cut?

[polak]

Originally Posted by rubecube

This. It's pretty ridiculous that the opposition to this has come down to some ridiculous hypothetical scenario of high school boys trying to game the system to go play on the girls' team. I'm guessing a few of the dudes posting must have been high school athletes. I know I was, and I don't think the thought would have ever crossed my mind. It's completely absurd.

What opposition? The only opposition I see is about sports competition and this is probably the only area where any non-bigoted person would have any opposition hence why this is the only conversation still going regarding this issue.

Everyone agrees about everything else.

[pylon]

Originally Posted by polak

How the #### is that fair?

The trans gendered kid's feelings are more important than the girl who got cut?

And that is honestly a very fair argument. Not very eloquently put, but it doesn't sound fair to me either.

[polak]

Originally Posted by pylon

And that is honestly a very fair argument. Not very eloquently put, but it doesn't sound fair to me either.

who knew that #### is censored.

[Kybosh]

Regarding the sport conversation, I think people are glossing over the fact that many (though not all), transgender individuals undergo hormone replacement therapies. That MMA fighter that people cited, who I had not previously heard about, definitely has undergone and continues these therapies. In some of the articles I read regarding her, medical doctors and endocrinologists have agreed that she basically has the same muscle/bone density of a genetic female and she's only 5'6"-5'7" in height (all well within the typical range of a female MMA fighter according to the articles). I haven't read the IOC rulings in details, but it would not surprise me if regulations are in place where one must undergo a certain amount of hormone therapy (say 2 years, which seems to be the average time needed) and other testing to verify effectiveness before being allowed to compete.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by polak

How the #### is that fair?



The trans gendered kid's feelings are more important than the girl who got cut?

Without trying to make a point of my own, I'm curious if you find other genetic differences to be unfair? or is it "regardless of testosterone levels, height, weight, etc, if you have a vagina you are fair competition for any and all women"?

[Makarov]

Originally Posted by polak

How the #### is that fair?

The trans gendered kid's feelings are more important than the girl who got cut?

Well, your question sort of misses the point I think. Someone's feelings being hurt because he or she wasn't strong enough or fast enough to make the varsity volleyball team is not remotely equivalent to the social and psychological damage caused by the exclusion and isolation experienced by transgendered persons due solely to their unchangeable and deeply personal characteristic (sexual identity).

[polak]

I'll gladly concede my stance if hormone treatment proves to take away any physical advantage that a male has over a female in sports.

Then it's a non-issue.

[pylon]

Originally Posted by Makarov

Well, your question sort of misses the point I think. Someone's feelings being hurt because he or she wasn't strong enough or fast enough to make the varsity volleyball team is not remotely equivalent to the social and psychological damage caused by the exclusion and isolation experienced by transgendered persons due solely to their unchangeable and deeply personal characteristic (sexual identity).

You don't know how important making that volley ball team is to the other girl either. She could have practiced and trained for an entire year to make the team, and be devastated not to, while the trans gendered girl could be kind of disinterested and was simply put on the team because she's taller than all the other girls, and would make a good blocker at the net.

If you're pushing for equality, you have to look at everyone's feeling as equal. You could have a million scenario's and arguments on the issue, and Polak is 100% right. The trans-gendered athletes feeling do not trump those of the other kid.

[The Big Chill]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Without trying to make a point of my own, I'm curious if you find other genetic differences to be unfair? or is it "regardless of testosterone levels, height, weight, etc, if you have a vagina you are fair competition for any and all women"?

I find that to be a really difficult question to answer. At a lower level of sports I think the most important aspects are inclusion and safety. For example, young players who are clearly bigger and more skilled then others their age will often move up an age range. That move is better for that individual because they will get the challenge they need to develop, and is better for everyone else because its safer to not have that bigger player playing with the smaller kids.

What I find difficult is figuring out where to draw the line (if we are drawing one at all). Having fully coed sports at a competitive level like High School would surely lower the participation numbers of females. Separating based on body types is difficult too, because even though the goal is safety, how fair would it be to tell Serena Williams that she now has to compete with the men because none of the females can keep up to her physically?

Really I think the goal should be to reach a point where everybody is comfortable enough in their own skin, and accepting enough of everyone's differences, that it really isn't a big deal to divide people by their gender (physiologically speaking). I have no idea how to even start reaching for that goal though. I'm also not even sure if the ideal situation I can see in my head addresses all the needs of everyone.

[Makarov]

Originally Posted by pylon

You don't know how important making that volley ball team is to the other girl either. She could have practiced and trained for an entire year to make the team, and be devastated not to, while the trans gendered girl could be kind of disinterested and was simply put on the team because she's taller than all the other girls, and would make a good blocker at the net.

If you're pushing for equality, you have to look at everyone's feeling as equal. You could have a million scenario's and arguments on the issue, and Polak is 100% right. The trans-gendered athletes feeling do not trump those of the other kid.

The problem with your argument, as I see it, is that there is a clear, objectively logical connection between volleyball team membership and height/strength/ability to block shots (or whatever). There is however no objectively logical connection between volleyball team membership and sexual identity. There is therefore no fair or logical reason to exclude a transgendered female from the female volleyball team solely because she had the misfortune of being born with a male body.

In any event, I also maintain my earlier point. I don't see how you can seriously argue that the damage caused by the two situations are, objectively considered, of the same type or remotely same magnitude.

[pylon]

Originally Posted by Makarov

The problem with your argument, as I see it, is that there is a clear, objectively logical connection between volleyball team membership and height/strength/ability to block shots (or whatever). There is however no objectively logical connection between volleyball team membership and sexual identity. There is therefore no fair or logical reason to exclude a transgendered female from the female volleyball team solely because she had the misfortune of being born with a male body.

In any event, I also maintain my earlier point. I don't see how you can seriously argue that the damage caused by the two situations are, objectively considered, of the same type or remotely same magnitude.

It is not for you to decide the level of magnitude that something impacts someones feeling or emotions. That's for the individual being affected to decide.

[Makarov]

Originally Posted by pylon

It is not for you to decide the level of magnitude that something impacts someones feeling or emotions. That's for the individual being affected to decide.

That isn't how society (and in particular the law) works. Subjective perceptions of harassment or discrimination are not sufficient to prove such or to justify a remedy. I presume that the practical reason for that is self evident.