Gee, the defense minister didn't indict himself for war crimes. I guess we should just take his word on it.
Jesus, is this what passes for logic?
Here's the relevant part of the article. Hint: It's not the fluff quote from the guy being questioned about war crimes.
So, it's not a war crime because Israel doesn't recognize the law. Convenient. Like using cluster bombs.
It's not a war crime, because no one recognizes it as such and it's common convention to use white phosphorous in battle. Like I said before Canada and its allies commonly use it...guess we're all war criminals too.
What the Red Cross wants is not determinative of the issue. The Red Cross would prefer it if there was no war.
I always get a kick out of the whole well if Hamas stops firing rockets everything will be ok viewpoint. It won't. How many rockets are fired out of the West Bank? The result, illegal settlements being built there. This is not a complicated situation, this is not a well both sides are equally at fault. If you fire rockets, Israel will bomb with impunity.If you don't fire rockets, they'll build on your land and delay the negotiations until there's nothing left to negotiate. One side has the money and the guns, and it has shown that no matter what route you choose, it will make your life hell.
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I always get a kick out of the whole well if Hamas stops firing rockets everything will be ok viewpoint. It won't. How many rockets are fired out of the West Bank? The result, illegal settlements being built there. This is not a complicated situation, this is not a well both sides are equally at fault. If you fire rockets, Israel will bomb with impunity.If you don't fire rockets, they'll build on your land and delay the negotiations until there's nothing left to negotiate. One side has the money and the guns, and it has shown that no matter what route you choose, it will make your life hell.
Israel's plan is pretty clear. They've built a wall to claim what they are taking. As it stands now, about 95% of the West Bank lies on the Palestinian side:
Israel has also offered land swaps in the past for what they are taking. However, the Palestinians really should accept Jewish minorities and communities. Israel has over 1.5 million Arabs living in their country. The only reason there weren't any Jews in the West Bank before 1967 was that Jordan removed them all during their invasion of 1949. This included the old Jewish quarter of East Jerusalem. Is a Jew moving back there really a settler?
So if Israel uses white phosphorous, which I assume is something Israel typically does not confirm nor deny, what about the rockets Hamas fires? This is the entire issue at hand. No rockets, no white phosphorous. I don't even have to mention launching rockets from schools and hospitals.
There is no "if". Israel has used white phosphorous as a weapon multiple times and has admitted to it almost every time.
I question your intent at this point, as while Israel is fine to use white phosphorous against soldiers, they've repeatedly used it indiscriminately (which is a war crime by definition according to the ICRC), specifically hitting UN compounds and using it in downtown Gaza City (which they fully knew was densely populated with civilians).
As someone who claims not to enjoy conflict or innocent deaths as you do, indiscriminate use of chemical weapons should not be excusable simply because of indiscriminate use of rockets.
I've said it before, but I'm deeply curious. Why do you hold Hamas, a terrorist group, to a higher standard than Israel? Why is Israel allowed to do many of the same things as Hamas while doing more damage to innocents, and receive virtually none of your ire? This is why you were called an extremist earlier. You seem to encourage and excuse the deaths of innocents in the name of enacting revenge and defence. This is not consistent with a moderate person.
Quote:
Originally Posted by blankall
It's not a war crime, because no one recognizes it as such and it's common convention to use white phosphorous in battle. Like I said before Canada and its allies commonly use it...guess we're all war criminals too.
What the Red Cross wants is not determinative of the issue. The Red Cross would prefer it if there was no war.
I think that the point was, as I stated above, it is in fact a war crime to use white phosphorous indiscriminately. When they used it in downtown Gaza City, that constituted a war crime against the civilian population.
But no, using it in battle is not a war crime, so long as you use it against soldiers and use it carefully to avoid civilian harm.
Israel's plan is pretty clear. They've built a wall to claim what they are taking. As it stands now, about 95% of the West Bank lies on the Palestinian side:
How nice of Israel to unilaterally take 5% of the West Bank for themselves, cutting of West bank communities and Palestinians from their resources. By the way, when the wall was built the International Court of Justice deemed it illegal and a land grab.
The Israeli government? No, I do not. I do think however that they are responding to the rocket attacks that are now reaching Tel Aviv and Jerusalem. Do Jewish extremists try and provoke? Sure, but I think Hamas wins the prize in that category.
As long as Hamas has a presence in the Palestinian Territories and vows to wipe the Jews off the face of the earth, Israel will exist as is. How can anyone expect Israel to relax anything when you have a well funded terrorist group targeting your civilian population?
Thanks for engaging but frankly this reads like talking points without a good understanding of what's been happening in this region lately.
I don't think your opinions are justified on reviewing the evidence. I think you've already staked out an ideologically motivated position to take and are now cherry picking "facts" to support that position.
Again, any rational assessment of the behaviour between both sides of this conflict of the last five years would certainly not unilaterally support Israeli policy and would most likely conclude that the Israeli government is the first problem with the escalating violence.
How nice of Israel to unilaterally take 5% of the West Bank for themselves, cutting of West bank communities and Palestinians from their resources. By the way, when the wall was built the International Court of Justice deemed it illegal and a land grab.
The International Court of Justice has no authority over the matter.
The fact of the matter was there was no 1967 border. That was a cease fire line after the surrounding Arab nations attempted to invade Israel. They invaded Israel again in 1967. They lost. Had Israel lost, it wouldn't exist.
A return to the 1967 cease fire line has never been on the table. If the Palestinians want more land they can negotiate for it peacefully. Israel has offered land swaps in the past. A swap of Arab communities in the North makes sense.
I actually think Israel building the wall is a good step towards peace. It defines a physical line in the sand that they shouldn't expand past. The line might suck for Palestinians but they didn't take all of the West Bank. Long term having a physical line created regardless of if either side likes it should aid in the peace process.
I hate that this debate always seems to be around assessing fault and who is worse. It isn't. Each countries behaviour should be evaluated on if they could do better.
Can Isreal ensure its security and reduce the number of Civilian casulaties? I believe this is yes so the international community should put pressure on Isael to develop better war practices. The above can be asked in a vacuum regardless of what Hamas or any other Arab nation or terrorist group does. Israel as a liberal democracy can do better and should do better.
The palestinians should also reject Hamas and all arab nations should recognize Israels right to exist and stop funding terrorist groups.
People don't need to take sides of who is better or worse. One side does not need to improve for the other side to improve. The Stop the rockets, stop the retaliation argument is a red herring.
I actually think Israel building the wall is a good step towards peace. It defines a physical line in the sand that they shouldn't expand past. The line might suck for Palestinians but they didn't take all of the West Bank. Long term having a physical line created regardless of if either side likes it should aid in the peace process.
I hate that this debate always seems to be around assessing fault and who is worse. It isn't. Each countries behaviour should be evaluated on if they could do better.
Can Isreal ensure its security and reduce the number of Civilian casulaties? I believe this is yes so the international community should put pressure on Isael to develop better war practices. The above can be asked in a vacuum regardless of what Hamas or any other Arab nation or terrorist group does. Israel as a liberal democracy can do better and should do better.
The palestinians should also reject Hamas and all arab nations should recognize Israels right to exist and stop funding terrorist groups.
People don't need to take sides of who is better or worse. One side does not need to improve for the other side to improve. The Stop the rockets, stop the retaliation argument is a red herring.
Once again, not a single person in this thread is on the side of Hamas.
No one is defending them. Everyone is very aware they are at terrorist organization that now functions as the local government.
Basically, there is this huge straw man in this discussion that any criticisms of Israeli policy either make you an anti-semite (Nage's FIRST post in this thread was accusing someone of anti-semitism), or, you're defending Hamas.
This isn't the case and never has been.
Israel's most ardent defenders in this thread are the only ones making excuses for barbarism and violence.
Basically, there is this huge straw man in this discussion that any criticisms of Israeli policy either make you an anti-semite (Nage's FIRST post in this thread was accusing someone of anti-semitism), or, you're defending Hamas.
That is a lie. Constant unjustified attacks against me don't make it true.
If you had any basic level of reading comprehension you would understand.
I actually think Israel building the wall is a good step towards peace. It defines a physical line in the sand that they shouldn't expand past. The line might suck for Palestinians but they didn't take all of the West Bank. Long term having a physical line created regardless of if either side likes it should aid in the peace process.
I hate that this debate always seems to be around assessing fault and who is worse. It isn't. Each countries behaviour should be evaluated on if they could do better.
Can Isreal ensure its security and reduce the number of Civilian casulaties? I believe this is yes so the international community should put pressure on Isael to develop better war practices. The above can be asked in a vacuum regardless of what Hamas or any other Arab nation or terrorist group does. Israel as a liberal democracy can do better and should do better.
The palestinians should also reject Hamas and all arab nations should recognize Israels right to exist and stop funding terrorist groups.
People don't need to take sides of who is better or worse. One side does not need to improve for the other side to improve. The Stop the rockets, stop the retaliation argument is a red herring.
Good post, and I generally agree, but I feel that the bolded has to be the first domino... there is simply no other way to initiate the process. It's really the only thing that hasn't been tried at least once since this whole ordeal began. I don't believe that if Israel ever stepped down, and withdrew to the their original boundaries, that it would prompt their neighbours to stop calling for their destruction. It would also put the onus squarely on Israel at that point.
I wish I understood the settlement issue a little more. From what I have been told, they are actually widely unpopular in mainstream Israeli society, but some rich and politically powerful people have been able to keep them going.
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"A pessimist thinks things can't get any worse. An optimist knows they can."
Thanks for engaging but frankly this reads like talking points without a good understanding of what's been happening in this region lately.
I don't think your opinions are justified on reviewing the evidence. I think you've already staked out an ideologically motivated position to take and are now cherry picking "facts" to support that position.
Again, any rational assessment of the behaviour between both sides of this conflict of the last five years would certainly not unilaterally support Israeli policy and would most likely conclude that the Israeli government is the first problem with the escalating violence.
LOL, meaning yours? I disagree. I would say it's pretty clear that in the latest escalation, it was the kidnapping and killing of 3 Jewish teens by Hamas as well as 100's of rockets being fired into Israel, some now reaching Tel Aviv and Jerusalem. Surely a rational mind could see that.
LOL, meaning yours? I disagree. I would say it's pretty clear that in the latest escalation, it was the kidnapping and killing of 3 Jewish teens by Hamas as well as 100's of rockets being fired into Israel, some now reaching Tel Aviv and Jerusalem. Surely a rational mind could see that.
Hamas denied they were behind the kidnapping/killing (and they always accept responsibility) and no proof was given by Israel. Instead, Israel rounded up many hamas members without any reason.
Hamas denied they were behind the kidnapping/killing (and they always accept responsibility) and no proof was given by Israel. Instead, Israel rounded up many hamas members without any reason.
Hamas chief Khaled Mashaal on Monday praised the June 12 kidnapping of three Israeli teenagers as a heroic act but denied having any information on the abduction.
In a lengthy interview with Al-Jazeera on Monday evening, Mashaal insisted that Gil-ad Shaer, Naftali Fraenkel and Eyal Yifrach, abducted while hitchhiking in the Etzion Bloc south of Jerusalem, were “settlers and soldiers in the Israeli army.”
“No one claimed responsibility so far. I can neither confirm [Hamas's responsibility] nor deny it,” Mashaal said, quickly adding that the circumstances of the kidnapping were more important than the perpetrators.
“Blessed be the hands that captured them,” Mashaal said. “This is a Palestinian duty, the responsibility of the Palestinian people. Our prisoners must be freed; not Hamas’s prisoners — the prisoners of the Palestinian people.”
Seems like a nice fellow.
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Captain James P. DeCOSTE, CD, 18 Sep 1993
Hamas denied they were behind the kidnapping/killing (and they always accept responsibility) and no proof was given by Israel. Instead, Israel rounded up many hamas members without any reason.
Uhuh....and trying to make Israel look like the heavy handed one never occurred to or has never been used by Hamas before. And even in the remotest possibility that Hamas higher ups weren't involved, they surely inspired it with their constant rhetoric and rocket barrages into Israel.
Israel is no saint, but with a daughter and grand kids now living in Israel(full disclosure-neither they nor I are Jewish), I somewhat understand their desire to protect themselves.
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Uhuh....and trying to make Israel look like the heavy handed one never occurred to or has never been used by Hamas before. And even in the remotest possibility that Hamas higher ups weren't involved, they surely inspired it with their constant rhetoric and rocket barrages into Israel.
Israel is no saint, but with a daughter and grand kids now living in Israel(full disclosure-neither they nor I are Jewish), I somewhat understand their desire to protect themselves.
Like I said earlier in this thread, this narrative that everything is fine and dandy for the Palestinians when they're not firing rockets is just not true. Their land, resources,and money is all targeted by Israel even during "peaceful" times.
P.S. I hope your daughter and grand kids stay safe.
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