Will Sven Bounce Back?

[BACKCHECK!!!]

Originally Posted by edslunch

What do the advanced stats say about his performance? Serious question

Slightly below average, in NHL terms.

But it is noteworthy to me that his advanced stat lines are almost identical to Monahan's in pretty much every way. You would expect them to be close since they frequently play on the same line, but they are almost mirror images.


Name: Monahan Sven
TOI 13.51 13.11
Qual Comp .984 1.173
Corsi Rel -2.1 -2.3
PDO 992 989
OZoneStart 60.7 60.2
OZoneFin 51.1 54.0



They are both a bit sheltered, face weaker than average opposition, and get slightly outplayed.

(And for those of you who are wondering, Backlund is yet again a team leader in pretty much every advanced stat category)


Edit: (You know what, F*** IT. All those spaces, and formatting and stuff, I didn't actually mean any of it. When I put 5 spaces in between characters, just go ahead and delete four of them, because I CLEARLY didn't actually want them. No matter how many times I try to do it. Goddammit.)

[Where ru Chris O'Sullivan]

Originally Posted by BACKCHECK!!!

Slightly below average, in NHL terms.

But it is noteworthy to me that his advanced stat lines are almost identical to Monahan's in pretty much every way. You would expect them to be close since they frequently play on the same line, but they are almost mirror images.


Name: Monahan Sven
TOI 13.51 13.11
Qual Comp .984 1.173
Corsi Rel -2.1 -2.3
PDO 992 989
OZoneStart 60.7 60.2
OZoneFin 51.1 54.0



They are both a bit sheltered, face weaker than average opposition, and get slightly outplayed.

(And for those of you who are wondering, Backlund is yet again a team leader in pretty much every advanced stat category)


Edit: (You know what, F*** IT. All those spaces, and formatting and stuff, I didn't actually mean any of it. When I put 5 spaces in between characters, just go ahead and delete four of them, because I CLEARLY didn't actually want them. No matter how many times I try to do it. Goddammit.)

And... 0.004 RarMetricJoules ahead of Sid Crosby - this why we don't need to worry about advanced stats?

[BACKCHECK!!!]

Originally Posted by Where ru Chris O'Sullivan

And... 0.004 RarMetricJoules ahead of Sid Crosby - this why we don't need to worry about advanced stats?

Yeah, cuz who cares about stupid things like shots on net, or finishing your shift in the offensive zone.

And seriously, your hate-on for Backlund is getting creepy.

[Murph]

From Friedman's 30 Thoughts:

"12. Watching Sven Baertschi brings reminders of Nino Niederreiter - and not because they're both Swiss. Niederreiter didn't like being in the AHL last season. But he was one of that league's best players and it's a major reason he's making such an impact with the Minnesota Wild. It damaged his relationship with the New York Islanders, despite being the correct move. Does Calgary have similar concerns? The Flames' AHL affiliate, the Abbotsford Heat, are a good team and a stint there makes sense for Baertschi. It's not a failure. It's a step in the development process."

http://www.cbc.ca/sports-content/hoc...-concerns.html

I'm as skeptical as the next guy on management's handling of Baertschi. But I gotta say, I agree with Friedman.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by BACKCHECK!!!

Slightly below average, in NHL terms.

But it is noteworthy to me that his advanced stat lines are almost identical to Monahan's in pretty much every way. You would expect them to be close since they frequently play on the same line, but they are almost mirror images.


Name: Monahan Sven
TOI 13.51 13.11
Qual Comp .984 1.173
Corsi Rel -2.1 -2.3
PDO 992 989
OZoneStart 60.7 60.2
OZoneFin 51.1 54.0



They are both a bit sheltered, face weaker than average opposition, and get slightly outplayed.

(And for those of you who are wondering, Backlund is yet again a team leader in pretty much every advanced stat category)


Edit: (You know what, F*** IT. All those spaces, and formatting and stuff, I didn't actually mean any of it. When I put 5 spaces in between characters, just go ahead and delete four of them, because I CLEARLY didn't actually want them. No matter how many times I try to do it. Goddammit.)

I assume you are frustrated with trying to line up the columns...

Instead of spaces (which the system seems to ignore) try using dots...

It isn't perfect but it works better than spaces

[Tinordi]

They should send Baertschi down. Look at Gustav Nyquist or Nino as examples of it working. And if Baertschi can't handle being sent to Abbotsford then he isn't made of NHL stuff.

[Phaneufenstein]

First Sven needs to have a BigMac, and if he doesn't start producing instantly, send him to the minors.

Seriously though, some games down in the AHL would help build his confidence back.
Because IMO that's the biggest thing that's suffering right now.

Confidence low + trying too hard = usually poor results

[TurnedTheCorner]

Originally Posted by BACKCHECK!!!

Edit: (You know what, F*** IT. All those spaces, and formatting and stuff, I didn't actually mean any of it. When I put 5 spaces in between characters, just go ahead and delete four of them, because I CLEARLY didn't actually want them. No matter how many times I try to do it. Goddammit.)

Use the code tags, the # button.

Name:       Monahan      Sven
TOI          13.51       13.11
Qual Comp   .984         1.173
Corsi Rel   -2.1        -2.3 
PDO          992         989
OZoneStart   60.7        60.2 
OZoneFin     51.1        54.0

[Murph]

Originally Posted by Tinordi

They should send Baertschi down. Look at Gustav Nyquist or Nino as examples of it working. And if Baertschi can't handle being sent to Abbotsford then he isn't made of NHL stuff.

Yup, and not only for a few games. Send him to the A for a few months at least. 10 minutes a night with regular press box time will serve him no good. If he's not ready, he's not ready. He'll play 18-20 minutes a night in Abbottsford and get all kinda of special teams time.

[Where ru Chris O'Sullivan]

Originally Posted by BACKCHECK!!!

Yeah, cuz who cares about stupid things like shots on net, or finishing your shift in the offensive zone.

And seriously, your hate-on for Backlund is getting creepy.

Sorry, my hate actually covered up my disgust for advanced stats. BAcks is just a really good example of why they are meaningless.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Murph

From Friedman's 30 Thoughts:

"12. Watching Sven Baertschi brings reminders of Nino Niederreiter - and not because they're both Swiss. Niederreiter didn't like being in the AHL last season. But he was one of that league's best players and it's a major reason he's making such an impact with the Minnesota Wild. It damaged his relationship with the New York Islanders, despite being the correct move. Does Calgary have similar concerns? The Flames' AHL affiliate, the Abbotsford Heat, are a good team and a stint there makes sense for Baertschi. It's not a failure. It's a step in the development process."

http://www.cbc.ca/sports-content/hoc...-concerns.html

I'm as skeptical as the next guy on management's handling of Baertschi. But I gotta say, I agree with Friedman.

I really don't understand why they haven't sent him down. It's been obvious for some time that Hartley doesn't think he's ready and it seems senseless for him to be in the press box watching a bad team that isn't going to make the playoffs when he can play top line for a good Heat team. Not sure what Feaster is trying to accomplish here and it's possibly a case that he just doesn't have the stones to send him down to Abbotsford.

[vilzeh]

Originally Posted by Where ru Chris O'Sullivan

Sorry, my hate actually covered up my disgust for advanced stats. BAcks is just a really good example of why they are meaningless.

Just because it benefits Backlunds case they are meaningless, right?

[Murph]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

I really don't understand why they haven't sent him down. It's been obvious for some time that Hartley doesn't think he's ready and it seems senseless for him to be in the press box watching a bad team that isn't going to make the playoffs when he can play top line for a good Heat team. Not sure what Feaster is trying to accomplish here and it's possibly a case that he just doesn't have the stones to send him down to Abbotsford.

My gut feel is, barring a trade, Sven gets sent to Abbottsford when Glencross returns.

[kyuss275]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

I really don't understand why they haven't sent him down. It's been obvious for some time that Hartley doesn't think he's ready and it seems senseless for him to be in the press box watching a bad team that isn't going to make the playoffs when he can play top line for a good Heat team. Not sure what Feaster is trying to accomplish here and it's possibly a case that he just doesn't have the stones to send him down to Abbotsford.

I would have sent him back also. Now with injuries there is no point. It is interesting what Friedman is saying though. I think Sven would be un-happy but take it like a man. I am not sure what his agent would do? Maybe its me, but i hear agents more and more demanding trades for their young clients the second something does not go their way.

[BACKCHECK!!!]

Lets do a thought experiment:

Lets assume just for a second that Hartley doesn hate Sven, that he doesn't want to sabotage the Flames, and that there actually is some technical/tactical aspect of Sven's game which Hartley thinks is/was not improving and could be addressed partially by having Sven watch someone else play on his line without him.

Now consider the following facts:
After being scratched, Sven gets put right back on his line (with skilled linemates).
He is getting the same amount of ice time as Monahan, 10-15 mins per game.
He is being trusted on the ice in the dying seconds of 1 goal games.
He is getting slightly sheltered situations and opponents, and favorable zone starts.
He is not getting killed, and is producing about half a point per game.

Remind me again what the problem is?

He's playing, he's getting plenty of sheltered ice time with skilled line mates, and he's producing we'll for a rookie. Even if you do assume that Hartley is scratching Sven for absolutely no reason, I'd say he's still better off playing 14 minutes per night as a productive player in the Big Leage and missing a game every two weeks, rather than spend the season riding the bus with the farm team.

If you do give Hartley the benefit of the doubt, then Sven is being handled basically perfectly. I'd like to see him get a bit more special teams time as the season progresses (including PK, because I think you should have the option of using your stars to kill key penalties), but there's still plenty of time for that.

[Vinny01]

Outside of flashes here and there Sven looks pretty bad out there. Playing top line minutes on a young top team in the AHL from now until the trade deadline could do wonders for him getting his game back.

Force feeding him minutes when he is struggling on the big team is not the answer

[neo45]

Call me crazy but I actually like Sven's two way game and physicality. If there is one thing I think he needs to work on is his speed. If he can get faster out there it will really open up his offense. He does not look like a liability out there to me at all

[Calgary4LIfe]

Originally Posted by kyuss275

I would have sent him back also. Now with injuries there is no point. It is interesting what Friedman is saying though. I think Sven would be un-happy but take it like a man. I am not sure what his agent would do? Maybe its me, but i hear agents more and more demanding trades for their young clients the second something does not go their way.

I don't think Sven would react the way some other prospects have. Few react that way, I find.

Ward is a good development coach as well. In the last few years, he has had to use guys like Kolanos in prime offensive opportunities because the Heat had little else in the way of offensive firepower. I believe they were in the bottom 5 or so (if memory serves - anyone care to double-check feel free to) offensively in the AHL.

This year, you are seeing a much more offensively robust team. The youth are the ones for the most part having that impact. Sven would definitely be a part of that, and Ward would have the 'luxury' of being tough on Sven as well, ensuring he doesn't develop into an offensive player with a defensively deficient game. Same values that Hartley is trying to instill in Baertschi.

With that being said, I think Sven will develop fine in the NHL. It would be one thing if Hartley is not 'teaching' Sven. If he was merely just scratching him and berating him, I would be on the bandwagon of having Hartley being dismissed ASAP. However, Hartley does have one-on-ones with Baertschi, going over video and explaining what he needs to do to improve as a professional (this coming from an interview or two I read from Baertschi).

I think at the moment, Baertschi is treading water. Sometimes his head is going below the surface, resulting in being scratched. More often than not, he is treading. If Sven hasn't noticeably improved his game by the mid-point, I would say it would be time to send him down to the Heat and let him develop a bit against some lower competition, and playing more minutes.

Between now and the trade deadline, there is probably going to be a massive increase in available ice-time. Sven needs to be a better 200ft player in order to take advantage of that, and I think Hartley is trying to do his best getting Sven prepared.

Hartley does reward Sven. There was a game (I can't remember which, but it was a loss - first game against Dallas maybe?) where Sven had the most ice-time for forwards. Higher than Cammalleri, Stajan and Hudler. He was one of the few players out there that was having a good game, and was rewarded for it. Conversely, when he is not, he gets his ice-time reduced. I think at this stage, that is a fair expectation for a developing player.

I think he will be fine in time. He is a smart, cerebral player with a high work-ethic. He is undersized (not badly, but noticeably) and players of his stature normally have a bit harder time breaking in and finding a way to succeed. I would bet he improves noticeably this season as it goes by, and will hopefully be ready to take on some of that ice-time that will be freed up from a couple of the vets that will be moved between now and the deadline.

[Flash Walken]

This has been the criticism of Hartley's treatment of Baertschi going back to February of last year.

Remember that time his family flew in from Europe to watch him play the hated Oilers and Hartley threatened to bench him after the game-day skate and then ended up playing him 4 minutes that game?

If he's not good enough, send him down. Playing him 8 minutes a night and scratching him for the others isn't doing anything for him or the team. Playing him on the 4th line while Tim Jackman gets 3rd line icetime does nothing for Baertschi or the team. Maybe it turned a conditional 7th into a 6th rounder.

[Psytic]

I think he is on track to be a 2nd liner which isn't bad for his draft position anyway. I would love if he could become a younger Hudler actually. I don't think there is anything wrong with the way he is being handled so far. He's not Patrick Kane, he will take time to bring his game up to the NHL lvl.