Hart, McLeod, Dube, Foote, Formenton charged with sexual assault

[Monahammer]

Originally Posted by blankall

If you were to ask a woman for consent before sexual ass-smacking, she'd probably get up and leave immediately.

The issue with Dube, potentially, was that he was doing it in a way designed to hurt, and he didn't have consent for the intercourse in the the first place.

What? Definitely not. It's always ok to ask. You can even ask in cutesy or dirty ways if you want, but definitely ask.

If you're with a partner and a small very non-harmful question being posed is all that takes them to end the encounter, then I would think you should be considering what got you to that point in the first place.

[FlamesAddiction]

The officer asks McLeod how the guys knew to go to the room.

“Were more guys coming because there’s a naked girl in the room doing sexual favours for guys?” the detective asks.

“I don’t think anyone said, ‘Come on over,’” McLeod says.

There might have been texts sent by guys, but McLeod says he didn’t send any of those messages.

“No, I just told guys I was getting food and I was with a girl,” he tells the detective.

Court has previously seen text messages sent by McLeod to a group chat telling his teammates to come to his room for a “3-way” and oral sex.

Big oof to the defense's case I think, specifically for McLeod.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Monahammer

What? Definitely not. It's always ok to ask. You can even ask in cutesy or dirty ways if you want, but definitely ask.

If you're with a partner and a small very non-harmful question being posed is all that takes them to end the encounter, then I would think you should be considering what got you to that point in the first place.

Asking for permission too much will kill the mood. Once again, I'm working from the position that you're in tune enough with your partner to notice when they are not having a good time or enjoying what's going on, and working within the parameters of the "normal" acts. I would consider anything that leaves a mark outside of normal, and where do you draw the line between a "smack" and a grab. During consensual sex are you asking for permission every time you grab a body part? Obviously, if you are grabbing in a way to hurt the other person that's different.

[PaperBagger'14]

This thread is very telling as to who is experienced with kink play and who is not. As Itse has mentioned, being young, drunk and inexperienced is the absolute worst time to do anything that requires a high level of trust and consent.

[MrButtons]

Originally Posted by blankall

Asking for permission too much will kill the mood. Once again, I'm working from the position that you're in tune enough with your partner to notice when they are not having a good time or enjoying what's going on, and working within the parameters of the "normal" acts. I would consider anything that leaves a mark outside of normal, and where do you draw the line between a "smack" and a grab. During consensual sex are you asking for permission every time you grab a body part? Obviously, if you are grabbing in a way to hurt the other person that's different.

Not to pick on you specifically but this is the whole issue of the case we're talking about. How can you be in tune with a person you've met and hooked up with that night? What if "normal" is different for other people than it is for you? Does asking for permission too much ruin the mood? Maybe. But better than ruining a life, mine or theirs. Consent isn't black and white y'all. If it was, this wouldn't be a trial or discussion point.

[Blaster86]

Originally Posted by blankall

Asking for permission too much will kill the mood. Once again, I'm working from the position that you're in tune enough with your partner to notice when they are not having a good time or enjoying what's going on, and working within the parameters of the "normal" acts. I would consider anything that leaves a mark outside of normal, and where do you draw the line between a "smack" and a grab. During consensual sex are you asking for permission every time you grab a body part? Obviously, if you are grabbing in a way to hurt the other person that's different.

I have never had confirming consent multiple times throughout an encounter end the encounter.


Though both our stories are anecdotal and mean nothing.

[Monahammer]

Originally Posted by blankall

Asking for permission too much will kill the mood. Once again, I'm working from the position that you're in tune enough with your partner to notice when they are not having a good time or enjoying what's going on, and working within the parameters of the "normal" acts. I would consider anything that leaves a mark outside of normal, and where do you draw the line between a "smack" and a grab. During consensual sex are you asking for permission every time you grab a body part? Obviously, if you are grabbing in a way to hurt the other person that's different.

Ok, but if you're engaging in consensual sex with your partner who you know well, you think asking a small question about something will kill the mood enough not to have sex? I am deeply confused about that personally... If my wife and I are getting hot there are very few things that happen to take the mood out, questions of any reasonable sort don't even register lol.
The exact comfort and normalcy you're talking about makes it seem very irrational that a question about comfort would ruin any sort of mood.

However, in a scenario where that might be relevant, a new partner who you're not comfortable and familiar with and may be easily removed from the mood, then it's all the more important to openly discuss things as they progress.

There's also easy ways to ask questions in dirty, non mood ruining ways. It's not rocket science when both people want to be there.

[The Cobra]

Originally Posted by blankall

If you were to ask a woman for consent before sexual ass-smacking, she'd probably get up and leave immediately.

So what's the alternative. Smack and hope for the best?

[blankall]

Originally Posted by MrButtons

Not to pick on you specifically but this is the whole issue of the case we're talking about. How can you be in tune with a person you've met and hooked up with that night? What if "normal" is different for other people than it is for you? Does asking for permission too much ruin the mood? Maybe. But better than ruining a life, mine or theirs. Consent isn't black and white y'all. If it was, this wouldn't be a trial or discussion point.

I think my perspective is different in that I don't engage in activities of "kink", violence or group sex. Maybe I'm just boring, as I stick with the standard positions. I also like to think that I was always in tune with my partners by paying lots of attention to their responses, once consent was given in the first place. People will verbally tell you if they're having a good time, without you asking.

I've never had any experiences where I've been accused of doing anything non-consensual, and every partner I've had, with the early days (before age 20) of being too inexperienced to "perform" properly has verbally expressed that they were having a good time and/or wanted more.

Edit: I also wouldn't describe most sexual acts as me doing something to someone else or initiating all acts, as opposed to doing it together. Two people can do something together physically to each other without confirming it verbally at each step.

[PepsiFree]

Just as a reminder, the law exists for protection, and consent isn’t always verbal.

If you think the law is saying you need to ask your long term partner with whom you already share mutual respect, trust, and understanding if it’s OK to do every single thing you’re doing every single time you’re doing it, you’re probably overthinking it.

This is far less complex and consent is request/granted in far more natural, straightforward ways than people are making it out to be. If the concept of consent is hard to grasp in your own life, this is a problem.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by The Cobra

So what's the alternative. Smack and hope for the best?

Hard to answer this question without getting overly crude. But there's typically activity going on that's well beyond that going on at that point. Once again, not talking about any smack that's going to cause pain or leave a mark.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

If you think the law is saying you need to ask your long term partner with whom you already share mutual respect, trust, and understanding if it’s OK to do every single thing you’re doing every single time you’re doing it, you’re probably overthinking it.

This is far less complex and consent is request/granted in far more natural, straightforward ways than people are making it out to be. If the concept of consent is hard to grasp in your own life, this is a problem.

One of our resident lawyers disagrees:

Difficulties in defining bright lines in this area of human behaviour are, in practice, revealing a routine disconnect between what the law is and how members of society generally act. How the law is applied to factual circumstances is, in my opinion, becoming increasingly unpredictable and therefore unsatisfactory for the realm of criminal law.

In my estimation, there is a high frequency of sexual interactions every day in Canada that would not be thought of by an average person as unlawful, and yet are prohibited sexual assault. As such, whether a person faces a sexual assault prosecution has become increasingly dictated by one factor: whether a sexual partner decides to make a police report alleging non-consensual sexual contact.

Do not get me wrong, I am not commenting here on the issue of false accusations at all. I am saying that we have developed the law of sexual assault in Canada to the point that what is defined as and criminalized as sexual assault includes conduct that most in society would not think there is a crime.

https://forum.calgarypuck.com/showpo...postcount=1667

As does at least one member of the Supreme Court of Canada (from the linked comment):

Adopting the Crown’s position would also require us to find that cohabiting partners across Canada, including spouses, commit a sexual assault when either one of them, even with express prior consent, kisses or caresses the other while the latter is asleep. The absurdity of this consequence makes plain that it is the product of an unintended and unacceptable extension of the Criminal Code provisions upon which the Crown would cause this appeal to rest.

This isn’t defending the actions of the accused in the case we’re talking about. If they didn’t, they should have obtained explicit consent before they acted. But looking at sexual behaviour in general, it’s simply not true that it’s straightforward for people of good will to avoid falling afoul of our consent laws.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

One of our resident lawyers disagrees:



As does at least one member of the Supreme Court of Canada (from the linked comment):



This isn’t defending the actions of the accused in the case we’re talking about. If they didn’t, they should have obtained explicit consent before they acted. But looking at sexual behaviour in general, it’s simply not true that it’s straightforward for people of good will to avoid falling afoul of our consent laws.

You’re missing the point to quite the extreme here.

How often do you break the consent law?

[Yamer]

Originally Posted by blankall

Hard to answer this question without getting overly crude. But there's typically activity going on that's well beyond that going on at that point. Once again, not talking about any smack that's going to cause pain or leave a mark.

I think a general rule of thumb should be to always ask someone permission, unless previously given, before you strike them in any way whatsoever.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Yamer

I think a general rule of thumb should be to always ask someone permission, unless previously given, before you strike them in any way whatsoever.

What's a strike? Is your hip hitting their buttocks a strike?

Edit: Couldn't you also define a grab as a strike. It's a strike but you hang on afterwards. You have to verbally ask permission every time you grab a new body part, despite the fact you're well into the act?

Anyways, I think we're getting way off topic here. But I don't think you can just put a black/white strike line, where things are off limits without verbal consent.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by blankall

What's a strike? Is your hip hitting their buttocks a strike?

Edit: Couldn't you also define a grab as a strike. It's a strike but you hang on afterwards. You have to verbally ask permission every time you grab a new body part, despite the fact you're well into the act?

Anyways, I think we're getting way off topic here. But I don't think you can just put a black/white strike line, where things are off limits without verbal consent.

Come on man. This is absurd.

[Amethyst]

Originally Posted by Jason14h

And you wonder why athletes would get consent videos after

If someone is afraid that their fame could cause issues, they should get a consent video BEFORE. If someone assaults you or does things you didn't agree to and then they are suddenly sticking a phone in your face, demanding you say it was consensual? That's terrifying and most victims probably would say it was, because they are afraid.

If you want a genuine consent video for doing certain stuff, get it ahead of time. That way the person knows just what they're getting into.

[Matt Reeeeead]

Originally Posted by Monahammer

Sorry, I strongly disagree. Society today is rife with examples of exactly this. We even have a term for it: The bystander effect. https://www.psychologytoday.com/ca/b...stander-effect


It happens pretty frequently, you see videos of people getting assaulted in broad daylight and most people just continue walking by (though some of course will stop to video tape it.) Very few offer any assistance to victims while incidents occur.

K so there is a difference between seeing an unknown attack in public between people you don’t know, with unknown weapons, and danger

Besides social pressure, I don’t see there being a basis to compare these situations that the player bystanders risked any physical harm in speaking up, intervening, or checking on the girl.

Completely different situations.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Jason14h]

Originally Posted by Amethyst

If someone is afraid that their fame could cause issues, they should get a consent video BEFORE. If someone assaults you or does things you didn't agree to and then they are suddenly sticking a phone in your face, demanding you say it was consensual? That's terrifying and most victims probably would say it was, because they are afraid.

If you want a genuine consent video for doing certain stuff, get it ahead of time. That way the person knows just what they're getting into.

They did that too ….

[The Big Chill]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

Big oof to the defense's case I think, specifically for McLeod.

That certainly looks bad on McLeod. He has invited the group over for sex and then days later is basically admitting EM didn’t ask to have people come over.