Alberta Politics Thread v2

[DiracSpike]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

How in the hell is a tougher tact going to work any better?

Do you think Trudeau still would have bought the pipeline to appease an Alberta premier who was totally combative? Do you think Trudeau woke up one day and just decided to pull out the charge card? That transaction would have taken months to negotiate, draw up, and vet. It doesn't take a genius to imagine that Notley's backdowns were likely preceded by a message from Trudeau "if you can play a little nicer with your brother, I'll buy you a nice toy".

You guys wanted Notley to push her chips all-in with a terrible hand. There would have been a slim chance of hitting the nuts, but the far more likely outcome would have been leaving the table altogether. To whatever extent we stayed in the game, our future prospects would be bleak, as the other players just wouldn't bother playing with us.

We can certainly fault Notley for creating uncertainty. With a less measured and strategic approach we could be pretty damn certain that the pipeline was dead

Sure it's a risk but to turn your argument around do you think the only reason the Feds bought the pipeline was because Notley was nice? If it was Kenney screw him but let's toss Notley a bone? It's possible but more likely they bought it due to some combination of recognizing that hobbling a large industry is a bad idea and not wanting to be sued by Kinder Morgan under NAFTA. Their problem now as it was before is they lack the political will to enforce the law and allow this to get built. They need to feel the heat to get them to get their act together.

And it's not just the Feds. Kenney has rather astutely pointed out the continued attacks we are feeling from American NGOs that we need to push back against. Suing them, reporting them to the CRA, scratching cheques to assist pro development First Nations like the eagle spirit consurtium; these are steps that Kenney has outlined outside of the TMX debate that need to happen. If Notley gets behind that as well she'll pull me closer to voting for her.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by Weitz

I mean sure. But you voted Green Party and claim to support pipelines.. so..?

What’s good for the goose amirite?

(Uber home from bar post)

100% fair. I will say that my vote was largely a throw away vote and was more of a protest against the other options at the time. I'm likely to stay home this time or just write-in "Macho Man Randy Savage" or something.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by DiracSpike

Sure it's a risk but to turn your argument around do you think the only reason the Feds bought the pipeline was because Notley was nice? If it was Kenney screw him but let's toss Notley a bone? It's possible but more likely they bought it due to some combination of recognizing that hobbling a large industry is a bad idea and not wanting to be sued by Kinder Morgan under NAFTA. Their problem now as it was before is they lack the political will to enforce the law and allow this to get built. They need to feel the heat to get them to get their act together.

And it's not just the Feds. Kenney has rather astutely pointed out the continued attacks we are feeling from American NGOs that we need to push back against. Suing them, reporting them to the CRA, scratching cheques to assist pro development First Nations like the eagle spirit consurtium; these are steps that Kenney has outlined outside of the TMX debate that need to happen. If Notley gets behind that as well she'll pull me closer to voting for her.

Just as an add on the belief was that Kinder had demanded action from the Federal Government over Trans X and certainty from the government that they would take steps to move this thing forward including declaring it in the national interest. When they got very little action from the Federal Government it was expected that the shareholders would vote on killing the project and Kinder would have filed a multi-billion dollar law suit against the governments of BC, Alberta and the Federal Government.



The Liberals were literally cornered into buying the pipeline for 4.5 billion instead of facing an 11 billion dollar lawsuit under NAFTA at the time.

[AFireInside]

Originally Posted by V

Don’t tell me what to feel guilty about. There’s plenty for me to feel guilty about, and none of it has to do with oil tanking.

I just did. You missed the point completely. If oil hadn't tanked there would still be issues with the government as there always has been but there would be less misdirected outrage and crying like this post you just made.

Originally Posted by MelBridgeman

Flat out false. Compared to the 1980s when you look at the statistics of the makeup of Alberta’s economy, we are more diversified today than we were in the 1980s. It just not an easy over night thing to do and sometimes it has been failure but it's been slowly happening.

I agree it isn't an easy thing.I think 40 years is enough time to put us in a better situation than we're currently in. We're all in on oil and have been forever. I mean all I hear constantly is we so desperately need a pipeline to fix things. That's not diversified. I'm definitely not against oil, but this province had ample opportunity to put us in a much better position for this downturn. Whether that means having money in the bank for a rainy day or through more diversification in the economy. We failed at both. Of course we're more diversified than the 80's but clearly not enough.

I'm well aware of what the 80's were like. My entire family has always been in oil. One of my first memories is having to go to the union hall for food because oil tanked and everyone was on strike etc etc.

Originally Posted by Locke

So then it doesnt matter who is in charge, which party is elected, who the Premier is, what the platforms are, what the ideas are concerning social change or economic.

As long as Oil doesnt tank.

Thats all that matters.

Cool.

Yep that's exactly what I said. Nailed it. Cut it with the strawman argument garbage. Of course it matters but if oil had stayed at $110/barrel people wouldn't be complaining about the NDP nearly as much. I'm saying the mistakes the government has been making, are amplified because oil tanked and our economy suffered for it. If it hadn't people would still find things to be upset about but not nearly to the same level that we're seeing. The PC party did a LOT of things wrong and people were ok letting it slide for a very long time. If they had remained in power with the economy going the way it has, they would be in the exact same position as the NDP right now. I need to be clear I'm not a big NDP fan but I'm also not naive enough to believe that we'd be much better off with any other party in charge over the past few years. They are all inept in different ways.

I actually think it does matter who's in charge and what they're platforms are. Historically Alberta doesn't seem to care though.

Originally Posted by GGG

Are you aware the % of GDP energy made in 1985 vs the amount today? The answer may surprise you. And before you look please post what you believe to be a suitable level of diversification?

It doesn't surprise me at all. I am aware. A suitable level is enough that our province doesn't completely fall apart when oil prices tank. The workforce may be diverse but government revenues certainly aren't.

We're obviously more diversified than the 80's but we could in a much better position than we are. There's one party to pin that blame on currently and it isn't the NDP. The NDP have screwed a lot of things up but I'm not placing the blame on them for this mess we are in. Not yet anyway.

[dsavillian]

Smoke = fire?

The leadership campaign of Jason Kenney collaborated with fellow candidate Jeff Callaway's campaign during the party's 2017 United Conservative Party leadership race, leaked internal UCP documents obtained by CBC News show.

The leaked cache of documents show Kenney's campaign provided Callaway with resources including strategic political direction, media and debate talking points, speeches, videos, and attack advertisements, all aimed at undermining Kenney's main political rival, Brian Jean.

The documents include several emails between Wolf, Davies, Kerr, and sometimes Callaway. The emails reveal Wolf and the Kenney campaign were providing not just communications support, but also planned, regular strategic political direction throughout Callaway's campaign.

In a telephone interview Saturday, Davies confirmed to CBC News the campaigns had even decided in advance when Callaway would quit the race.

"Callaway's withdrawal was something that wasn't necessarily negotiable," Davies said. "It was something that had been decided in a meeting in mid-July, between Callaway and the Jason Kenney leadership team."

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmon...059899?cmp=rss


big if true

[RedHot25]

That story is....wow.

[Red Slinger]

I have never liked Kenney. He comes from the same school of conservative think-tank factory as Ezra Levant and Rob Anders. They are lifelong politicians or political operatives essentially raised by the Heritage Foundation with no real-world experience. He deems to lecture others on economic models despite never having worked a real job in his life. These folks are all about getting and maintaining power at any cost (like many politicians), all the while lecturing the rest of us on morality (homosexuality, abortion, etc.) They are the embodiment of what Plato warned about in the Republic: those that want power the most are the last that should have it (I paraphrase).

I was talking with a Trump supporter not that long ago and an interesting thing happened. He and I basically agreed that Trump was a liar, conman and only in it for his own enrichment and ego. We were specifically talking about some of the new trade deals like NAFTA and the guy said, "he's a son of a bitch, but he's OUR son of a bitch". It got me thinking that occasionally you need a leader who is a real SOB. Pierre Trudeau, Ralph Klein, and even Nenshi could qualify in that category at least to some extent. You can agree or disagree with their policies but when they set out to accomplish something they usually get things done even if it ruffles a few feathers.

Alberta (and Canada) need a real SOB at the helm at least for a short period of time. We need someone who is willing to stand up to special interests, call them on their BS and do what is right for the province and/or country. Of the current Alberta leadership candidates we don't have that. Notley would probably be a good leader under normal circumstances but under the current trying times I don't think she's a fit. Mandel isn't competent, smart or tough. Side note: you had a chance and really blew it Alberta Party. Kenney talks tough but I'm not convinced he's anything more than a Heritage Foundation bought and paid for corporate shill.

Alberta needs real leadership and instead we have a failed hippie, a geriatric moron and a moralizing empty suit. I hate not voting and I don't believe in spoiling my ballot. I have no idea what I'm going to do.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by AFireInside

I just did. You missed the point completely. If oil hadn't tanked there would still be issues with the government as there always has been but there would be less misdirected outrage and crying like this post you just made.



I agree it isn't an easy thing.I think 40 years is enough time to put us in a better situation than we're currently in. We're all in on oil and have been forever. I mean all I hear constantly is we so desperately need a pipeline to fix things. That's not diversified. I'm definitely not against oil, but this province had ample opportunity to put us in a much better position for this downturn. Whether that means having money in the bank for a rainy day or through more diversification in the economy. We failed at both. Of course we're more diversified than the 80's but clearly not enough.

I'm well aware of what the 80's were like. My entire family has always been in oil. One of my first memories is having to go to the union hall for food because oil tanked and everyone was on strike etc etc.



Yep that's exactly what I said. Nailed it. Cut it with the strawman argument garbage. Of course it matters but if oil had stayed at $110/barrel people wouldn't be complaining about the NDP nearly as much. I'm saying the mistakes the government has been making, are amplified because oil tanked and our economy suffered for it. If it hadn't people would still find things to be upset about but not nearly to the same level that we're seeing. The PC party did a LOT of things wrong and people were ok letting it slide for a very long time. If they had remained in power with the economy going the way it has, they would be in the exact same position as the NDP right now. I need to be clear I'm not a big NDP fan but I'm also not naive enough to believe that we'd be much better off with any other party in charge over the past few years. They are all inept in different ways.

I actually think it does matter who's in charge and what they're platforms are. Historically Alberta doesn't seem to care though.



It doesn't surprise me at all. I am aware. A suitable level is enough that our province doesn't completely fall apart when oil prices tank. The workforce may be diverse but government revenues certainly aren't.

We're obviously more diversified than the 80's but we could in a much better position than we are. There's one party to pin that blame on currently and it isn't the NDP. The NDP have screwed a lot of things up but I'm not placing the blame on them for this mess we are in. Not yet anyway.

Can you now show me an economy that if the value of their number 1 economic driver went from $80 to -$5 over a course of 3 years would have done better than Alberta did? Is there any state that you believe is correctly diversified that we can model after? I don’t believe there is.

I do agree that the government should have saved more, taxed more, and weened us off of resource revenue dependence from the day Ralph Bucks were issued onwards

[RedHot25]

Didn't he just shrug off things as recently as a day or 2 ago?

[GGG]

Originally Posted by dsavillian

Smoke = fire?



https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmon...059899?cmp=rss


big if true

So at what point does this become disqualifying.

Does finding someone to run and sock puppet for you disqualify you as premier? I don’t think so.

Things in this article that start to cross that line are the using Callaway’s debate ticket allocations. For me if Kenny is found to have funded this operation which would be illegal that would be disqualifying.

[RedHot25]

This is pretty big. But if a big direct money connection is found/exists , than it becomes massive.

[transplant99]

I dont think any part of this is "illegal" unless there was unclaimed contributions involved though...no?

It is freaking sleazy, no question and the use of a trojan horse style candidate to target someone else seems way over the top, but again what laws would it be breaking?

Im just getting up to speed on this but so far i haven't read what it is exactly the RCMP would be investigating other than where the money came from and how it ended up where it did.

[Duruss]

Originally Posted by transplant99

I dont think any part of this is "illegal" unless there was unclaimed contributions involved though...no?

It is freaking sleazy, no question and the use of a trojan horse style candidate to target someone else seems way over the top, but again what laws would it be breaking?

Im just getting up to speed on this but so far i haven't read what it is exactly the RCMP would be investigating other than where the money came from and how it ended up where it did.

I hate the thought pattern of if it's not illegal it's fine, but ethics matter. Kenny is that type of person though I don't think anyone here disagrees and that's the issue we need a Lougheed again don't we.

[Slava]

Originally Posted by transplant99

I dont think any part of this is "illegal" unless there was unclaimed contributions involved though...no?

It is freaking sleazy, no question and the use of a trojan horse style candidate to target someone else seems way over the top, but again what laws would it be breaking?

Im just getting up to speed on this but so far i haven't read what it is exactly the RCMP would be investigating other than where the money came from and how it ended up where it did.

Well it is illegal. The idea that a PAC (or any party) can raise money and have people make contributions with the funds funneled to them is completely illegal. That’s the RCMP involvement. It’s also why Elections Alberta has already fined people and to top it all off it’s in the course of that investigation where Elections Alberta was sending letters to get people to stop obstructing that investigation. Literally every aspect here is rotten from the clandestine meetings and planning, right through to this cover up operation.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by transplant99

I dont think any part of this is "illegal" unless there was unclaimed contributions involved though...no?

It is freaking sleazy, no question and the use of a trojan horse style candidate to target someone else seems way over the top, but again what laws would it be breaking?

Im just getting up to speed on this but so far i haven't read what it is exactly the RCMP would be investigating other than where the money came from and how it ended up where it did.

“Where the money came from and how it ended up where it did” as well as manipulating the election is in fact against the election act.

The penalties appear to range from fines, to jail time, to having the entire party be completely de-funded and everyone directly involved being barred from running for up to 7 years.

What’s going on is potentially VERY serious, what is alleged is absolutely illegal, and could very well warp the Alberta political landscape.

[Ducay]

Leaders come and go, but NDP policies are directly destructive to our economy and thus, way of life. Enjoy the next 2 months Rachel!

[Locke]

nm

[Roughneck]

The most perplexing thing about all this is that dipping to potentially criminal means to win the leadership was likely unnecessary.

Similarly not supporting flood mitigation efforts to cater to people who won’t not support you while certain affected ridings might actually be at risk of voting someone else also doesn’t make sense.

So the big question is: Why?

[GullFoss]

Wow Jason Kenney is even more of a dirtbag than I thought. Hopefully he is forced to resign and Brian Jean can come back.

[MoneyGuy]

Had my local UCP candidate, who is a friend, at my door today. I didn’t have the heart to tell him that Kenney is scummy and sleazy. I don’t know who I can vote for.