Hold the police to the same standard that soldiers are held to an a counter-insurgency situation - don't fire until you have been fired upon. That seems pretty easy to implement like immediately.
So police must wait to be killed? This is not reasonable at all.
There clearly is an issue, but the vast majority of interactions with police go smoothly.
Hold the police to the same standard that soldiers are held to an a counter-insurgency situation - don't fire until you have been fired upon. That seems pretty easy to implement like immediately.
Police in America won't go for this because it'll mean a lot more dead cops. As much as I hate bad cops I understand they have to deal with a heavily armed public, and if criminals know they can take the first shot they won't hesitate to do so.
But Philando Castile would still be alive so I can support this idea.
It's called detaining. If the cops felt the situation might eventually escalate that's what should have happened. Again, these were two trained officers, who made some mistakes that ended in a man dead. They made mistakes that they shouldn't have, that a trained officer shouldn't make, and the guy is now a corpse. That's on them and they deserve too be punished.
Like I said, if they detain, that can be construed as abuse.
This is a lose lose situation.
I don't think your are balanced here with your conclusion.
Essentially IMO the majority of these cases seem too involve police not overly prepared for the circumstances they're met with. At that point they revert back to their original training that essentially tells them "better them than me". As most people seem to get here, we need a paradigm shift in how police approach public safety and their day to day interactions with all of us.
I don’t know why more people don’t share the same view of being killed by police as we do torture or protection under the legal system. That is, I’d rather 1000 terrorists go free than have us dehumanize even 1 person with torture. Same with innocent until proven guilty and a right to a fair trial. I’d rather 1000 murderers go free than 1 innocent man (or woman) be put away.
Well, I’d rather 1000 dead cops than 1 person killed due to unnecessary excessive force. They signed up for the dangerous job, not us. They should bear the brunt of the risk, not us. They should be willing to die in the line of duty to protect us, not the other way around.
And it’s bizarre that police don’t feel this way themselves. (Well maybe not considering the levels of prejudice and racism present, because they clearly don’t see minorities as being worth dying for) It should be an altruistic profession, not one filled with trigger happy me-first personalities.
Last edited by Cecil Terwilliger; 06-14-2020 at 01:56 PM.
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George Floyd didn't resist arrest and they killed him as well, the truth is it doesn't matter what black men in the US do, the cops will still kill them, cop tells you produce your license then shoots you for reaching into your jacket to get your license, it would appear that there is nothing a black man in the states can do to avoid the risk of getting shot by the police.
Stastically this isn't what's happening. What is happening is that black people interact with the police more. But per interaction they are killed less often than white people.
People are not having the right conversation and its really something to see.
And if you want to make the argument that they're hassled by the police more because of selective enforcement the doj reports that for a 20 year period black people accounted for over half of all murders in the states.
The problem is poverty, broken families, and #### education. All this arguing over police brutality is a discussion of symptoms.
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I don’t know why more people don’t share the same view of being killed by police as we do torture or protection under the legal system. That is, I’d rather 1000 terrorists go free than have us dehumanize even 1 person with torture. Same with innocent until proven guilty and a right to a fair trial. I’d rather 1000 murderers go free than 1 innocent man (or woman) be put away.
Well, I’d rather 1000 dead cops than 1 person killed due to unnecessary excessive force. They signed up for the dangerous job, not us. They should bear the brunt of the risk, not us. They should be willing to die in the line of duty to protect us, not the other way around.
And it’s bizarre that police don’t feel this way themselves. (Well maybe not considering the levels of prejudice and racism present, because they clearly don’t see minorities as being worth dying for) It should be an altruistic profession, not one filled with trigger happy me-first personalities.
Wow, unbelievable.
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Well, I’d rather 1000 dead cops than 1 person killed due to unnecessary excessive force.
What does everyone else think of this? Honestly interested in the reaction to this view, particularly compared to some other posts in here.
__________________ "The great promise of the Internet was that more information would automatically yield better decisions. The great disappointment is that more information actually yields more possibilities to confirm what you already believed anyway." - Brian Eno
The guy is passed out in a drive thru smelling of alcohol and incapable of forming a sentence...and the cop asks him to drive his car over to a parking spot. I just really have to question this guy's training...
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What does everyone else think of this? Honestly interested in the reaction to this view, particularly compared to some other posts in here.
I think the belief by a few that if the cops didn't have the mantra "I'd rather be judged by 12 then carried by 6" would lead to American streets running red with the blood of police officers is absurd. There are more then a few countries out there with much more restrictions on authorities powers where their cops aren't mourning dead comrades on a weekly basis.
Hearing about this case reminds me of when I scold my children for hitting each other. I sit the 5 year old down and explain to him why we don't hit each other and why it's a bad thing to do. He says he understands and we hug it out, and they go back to playing.
Then 5 minutes later when there's more screaming and I catch him hitting again, I often say, "Didn't we just finish talking about this?! What did I say?!"
That's America's police departments at the moment. Literally a 5 year old that can't change their habits despite saying "I understand".
But also, black people...we've talked about this from your end too. Don't give them a reason to shoot you either. It doesn't excuse their behavior in any way, but you know what's likely to happen when you resist arrest and attempt to fire something at an officer. It's like getting mad at an alligator for biting your hand when you stick it in their mouth.
Complying with the police, especially if you are black, is far from a guarantee of safety. You're rolling the dice either way.
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Stastically this isn't what's happening. What is happening is that black people interact with the police more. But per interaction they are killed less often than white people.
People are not having the right conversation and its really something to see.
The deaths per interaction could be a case of Simpson’s Paradox.
Quote:
Suppose, hypothetically, that a white suspect is killed by police in one out of 100,000 traffic stops and nine out of 10 shootings. And imagine that Black suspects are killed by police after 20 out of 1,000,000 traffic stops and in 10 out of 10 active shooter incidents. In each kind of incident, Black suspects are killed more often than white suspects. In aggregate, though, the percentage is higher for white people: 10 out of 100,010 white people are killed vs. 30 out of 1,000,010 Black people, because the white people tend to encounter the police in more grave situations.
. (The numbers in the article are for example of how it could work. Without knowing severity of encounter you don’t know if it’s happening or not and the data doesn’t appear to exist.)
Where I disagree is that people are talking about the wrong conversation.
Defunding the police is specifically being discussed in order to reduce the number of encounters Black people have with police.
If you look at the recommendations at 8cantwait.org, which research shows could reduce police killings by up to 72%, None of these initial proposals have anything to do with race.
The activists appear to be clearly having the correct conversations. You reduce the shooting of Black people by reducing the number of interactions they have with police and by changing police policies to limit escalation and violence for ALL encounters.
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Complying with the police, especially if you are black, is far from a guarantee of safety. You're rolling the dice either way.
Do you realize how many different police interactions occur every day with no incidents? Statistically speaking if you comply with police, you are safe 99% of the time, it is not “a role of the dice”.
Should you be safe 100% of the time? Absolutely. Sadly the murder of George Floyd has proven otherwise.
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Last edited by Derek Sutton; 06-14-2020 at 02:32 PM.
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The deaths per interaction could be a case of Simpson’s Paradox.
. (The numbers in the article are for example of how it could work. Without knowing severity of encounter you don’t know if it’s happening or not and the data doesn’t appear to exist.)
Where I disagree is that people are talking about the wrong conversation.
Defunding the police is specifically being discussed in order to reduce the number of encounters Black people have with police.
If you look at the recommendations at 8cantwait.org, which research shows could reduce police killings by up to 72%, None of these initial proposals have anything to do with race.
The activists appear to be clearly having the correct conversations. You reduce the shooting of Black people by reducing the number of interactions they have with police and by changing police policies to limit escalation and violence for ALL encounters.
Agree in part. But the selective enforcement argument doesn't statistically hold water.
I agree that the US should be heavily reforming Police to have fewer interactions over most things, and, get a lot more training to de-escalate and reduce lethal force.
But the real heavy lifting is diverting tax dollars from white schools to black schools, and communities.
Well, I’d rather 1000 dead cops than 1 person killed due to unnecessary excessive force. They signed up for the dangerous job, not us. They should bear the brunt of the risk, not us. They should be willing to die in the line of duty to protect us, not the other way around.
I absolutely do not agree with this, in fact I think it is disgusting.
Do you realize how many different police interactions occur every day with no incidents? Statistically speaking if you comply with police, you are safe 99% of the time, it is not “a role of the dice”.
Should you be safe 100% of the time? Absolutely. Sadly the murder of George Floyd has proven otherwise.
I think you're mixing up your stats. 99% of police officers are not charged with a crime when they kill someone. Even fewer receive anything beyond a letter when they violate someone's rights. And less than .5% of complaints filed against police result in any action taken. That all sort of helps get you to your 99% of interactions are safe number but I don't think it's quit accurate yet.
What does everyone else think of this? Honestly interested in the reaction to this view, particularly compared to some other posts in here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nage Waza
I absolutely do not agree with this, in fact I think it is disgusting.
What’s more interesting, and hypocritical, to me is people that agree with the first two but are disgusted with the 3rd one.
Why? You (that’s the royal you) are disgusted that we might torture or imprison or execute innocent people but are ok with cops killing innocent people? (Maybe not completely innocent but not needing to be killed by cops guilty)
Since 1 and 2 are a somewhat common belief (many people agreed when this came up regarding the US torture scandals), I’m actually surprised my views aren’t more common.
The idea that cops refuse to accept the dangers of their job and we as citizens (or Americans if you prefer) are forced to accept that risk on the police’s behalf is, like I already said, completely bizarre.
Last edited by Cecil Terwilliger; 06-14-2020 at 03:12 PM.
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