[PGT] Flames 6 Arizona 5 - whine about the tank here

[Hack&Lube]

We can't just gut the team and will them to lose. That's terrible for player morale. The players have to have pride in their game and let that carry over to enthusiasm to coming back and giving it everything next year.

Do fans who paid for tickets in their seats want to go to the Dome to watch the team lose?

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by topfiverecords

This place sure is a hyperbole chamber and this thread is certainly exemplifying it.

Your side is. You've spewed out more hyperbole than anyone except possible FanIn80. Gio and Bingo haven't engaged in hyperbole at all.

Those two wins have done less good for the bigger picture than two losses would have.

So what? The team should have thrown those games instead?

You think the OTHER two teams, which are worse than the Flames and have ALSO been eliminated, can't do the same? They can out-suck us any day of the week.

I still remember the turtle race in '84 between New Jersey and Pittsburgh for the rights to draft Mario Lemieux. That was some of the worst hockey ever seen, because the coaches actually had marching orders to throw the games. New Jersey finished with 41 points, Pittsburgh 38. Nobody sane wants to pay admission to see games like those. Now you're complaining because a team that isn't even in the running for last place, in a year when there is no talent remotely comparable to Lemieux, isn't doing the same thing those two teams did. It's pathetic.

That’s just a true fact and you can try all you want to put bows on “players going into the summer on a winning streak high” and “marginal affects on the draft”, but it just doesn’t make a case. Some of us see a clear distinction between the 11th pick and the 7th, in lottery odds, players available, and success rates.

So why do the players throw games? For the benefit of a draft pick who won't be on the team until most of them have moved on?

Why do the coaches throw games? The average head coach in the NHL lasts about 2.5 years with one team. Chances are that Huska will never coach that draft pick for a single game. Should he make his resume worse for his next job over a single spot in the draft order for the team that is going to fire him?

All the garish attempts at trying to explicitly link what the team and players do to a fans preference for a loss over a win have been humourous.

You're the one making that link, because you get mad that the team isn't doing what you, as a fan, want.

You’ll all be rolling into the draft threads making comments pre and post draft about how your guy you wanted was missed out on. It happens every year.

Yes, and it happens to every team every year, except the team that drafts first overall – which only gets to do so by winning the lottery. So what?

Good grief, you're tiresome.

[442scotty]

Can’t just tank and invite bad karma. Hope we can hit a home run in the draft no matter where they select (Iggy please)

[FanIn80]

Originally Posted by dino7c

Injuries don't count against recalls
The Flames have used all their non emergency recalls so that is a dumb argument. You will be hard pressed to find another team who's current roster has played both in the NHL and AHL this season.

Start Wolf every game, even back to backs...like now you are just being silly. Whats next? they should have spiked the water bottles lol. Called Tonya Harding to take out Kuzmenko? Hoping your team loses is one thing but you are being ridiculous because you didn't know about roster limits but won't back off your stance at all. All the teams below Calgary are icing lineups and playing hard. This is the ####ing NHL not your videogame. Montreal got a point last night and damn near ended the Wings season.

Jesus f'n Christ. How on earth is starting Wolf for all the games to see how "our future #1" actuall handles the load of a #1 goalie anything like Tonya Harding or spiking water bottles.

I can't handle you, man. You're a f'n... I don't even know wtf you are.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by FanIn80

I'm not talking about since the trade deadline. We should have been trying to win games at that point, because we still had a chance to make the playoffs.

I'm literally (currently and have been) only talking about what we've done since actually being eliminated. That's all I've ever been talking about.

These last 5 games and the 2 games left... these are the games we could have changed something up for, but we've treated them just like we're still trying to clinch a playoff spot. Vet-heavy lineups and icetimes. Only injury-related roster changes.

We're 3 and 2 since we've been eliminated, and we've made zero game plan changes (even though we're out of the playoffs) for those 5 games (and I imagne also zero changes for the 2 games left).

The Flames lost something like 7 of 9 against average teams.

Beating Anaheim (1 of 2), San Jose and then an Arizona team that gave away a game isn't subverting a tank direction.

It's just finding opponents worse than you.

Once again ... don't see the point in worrying about this, but then it's been 4 pages and you and others are still just as frantic.

Agree to disagree I guess.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by Hack&Lube

We can't just gut the team and will them to lose. That's terrible for player morale. The players have to have pride in their game and let that carry over to enthusiasm to coming back and giving it everything next year.

I don't agree with the take of "you can't trade everyone" because I think that's how you facilitate a tank and guys like Andersson, Coleman, etc should be shopped.

But when the guys are 1) Healthy, and 2)Still on the roster then you can't ask them to lose, or not play them.

That's where it becomes a slipperly slope. They did what they could to gut the roster and tank, and now the guys that are still here still have to play and have pride in their game. If you start benching healthy players, or playing your veterans 4th line minutes while they are still healthy and on the roster that's how you create a crappy culture.

And for the most part their strategy has worked...they have the 4th worse record in the last 20 games ahead of only Anaheim, San Jose, and Columbus. And really that's without being too embarassing and remaining competitive most nights.

Now if it comes out a bunch of guys are playing hurt then that is just stupid.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by FanIn80

Again... nothing I've said has anything at all to do with the TDL.

Like... think of it it like this...

In this current Flames regular season, there have been two types of games... games we wanted to win because we had not yet been eliminated from playoff contention (these games we wanted our best linups and icetimes!)... and the other type are the games where winning or losing was 100% irrelevant because it was no longer possible to make the playoffs (these games we wanted to experiment with and try all kinds of neat things in becuase, in fact, losing these games would have been a huge benefit).

That's it. My last time trying to explain that I only care about what we did for the games after April 4th, when we were officially eliminated.

If people aren't getting it, then I guess people just aren't getting it.

It has everything to do with the TDL. Zero people expected them to make the POs from that point on - name one person here who said otherwise. The day they were officially eliminated is irrelevant.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by FanIn80

Dude what are you even talking about.

Wolf started 2 of the 5 games.
I mentioned Montreal once.

‘Dude’ is obviously talking about games since the TDL.

You don't seem to understand that the point where the team is mathematically eliminated is meaningless in terms of roster construction. Your last chance to change the roster in any important way is at the TDL. People who know what they are talking about therefore look at the games since that date.

[FanIn80]

Originally Posted by Bingo

The Flames lost something like 7 of 9 against average teams.

Beating Anaheim (1 of 2), San Jose and then an Arizona team that gave away a game isn't subverting a tank direction.

It's just finding opponents worse than you.

Once again ... don't see the point in worrying about this, but then it's been 4 pages and you and others are still just as frantic.

Agree to disagree I guess.

Why do you keep quoting posts of me explaining I'm only talking about the last 5 games, and then saying things like "we've lost 7 of 9" ...?

prior to the last 5 games, we wanted to win to make the playoffs. for the last 5 games it's been impossible to make the playoffs, so winning no longer matters.

we've treated those games like we're still trying to make the playoffs, and we've gone 3-2 in them

this is my final post in this thread.

[traptor]

Will be interesting how everyone feels if we're in a similar spot next year with the conditional pick to montreal looming over us.


Hopefully we can avoid that. Which means playoffs somehow or bottoming out but it's in our best interest to pick a lane and stay in it.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by FanIn80

Why do you keep quoting posts of me explaining I'm only talking about the last 5 games, and then saying things like "we've lost 7 of 9" ...?

prior to the last 5 games, we wanted to win to make the playoffs. for the last 5 games it's been impossible to make the playoffs, so winning no longer matters.

we've treated those games like we're still trying to make the playoffs, and we've gone 3-2 in them

this is my final post in this thread.

If your analysis is "the last five games" only, it's an extremely flawed analysis. "Mathematically eliminated" is irrelevant to what the Flames were doing this year.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by FanIn80

Why do you keep quoting posts of me explaining I'm only talking about the last 5 games, and then saying things like "we've lost 7 of 9" ...?

prior to the last 5 games, we wanted to win to make the playoffs. for the last 5 games it's been impossible to make the playoffs, so winning no longer matters.

we've treated those games like we're still trying to make the playoffs, and we've gone 3-2 in them

this is my final post in this thread.

Because I don't see the last 5 games as any more relevant than the previous 13.

I thought the season was over when Lindholm was traded, and I pretty much knew it was over when they dealt the entirety of their top defense pairing.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by traptor

Will be interesting how everyone feels if we're in a similar spot next year with the conditional pick to montreal looming over us.


Hopefully we can avoid that. Which means playoffs somehow or bottoming out but it's in our best interest to pick a lane and stay in it.

They are 29th in the league since March 8th.

They are clearly in a lane and they haven't departed it.

Take out Markstrom next year and I doubt that 29th number improves much if at all.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by FanIn80

Why do you keep quoting posts of me explaining I'm only talking about the last 5 games, and then saying things like "we've lost 7 of 9" ...?

Because, as I pointed out just above your last post, the last 5 games are an entirely arbitrary sample. The real question is what the team has done since the last opportunity to make meaningful roster changes, which was the TDL.

That is why everyone in this thread is talking about that period of time, except you.

prior to the last 5 games, we wanted to win to make the playoffs. for the last 5 games it's been impossible to make the playoffs, so winning no longer matters.

That's not how it works. Everybody knew at the TDL that this team was not making the playoffs without a miracle. Teams don't have a switch labelled ‘effort’ that they can simply turn on and off on command. But GMs have a switch labelled ‘trades’ that gets turned off at a certain date whether they like it or not.

we've treated those games like we're still trying to make the playoffs, and we've gone 3-2 in them

THEY, not ‘we’… the Calgary Flames, a group that does not include you… have treated those games like competitive hockey games. They played very badly against Arizona, as it happens, but the Coyotes' goalie played even worse. That's a thing that happens when bad teams play each other.

this is my final post in this thread.

What a relief!

[All In Good Time]

Originally Posted by Bingo

They are 29th in the league since March 8th.

They are clearly in a lane and they haven't departed it.

Take out Markstrom next year and I doubt that 29th number improves much if at all.

I fear we will be in this territory for quite a while, perhaps much more than many expect.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by All In Good Time

I fear we will be in this territory for quite a while, perhaps much more than many expect.

I don't buy for a second that this team is playoff ready for the building to open.

That's a huge reach.

5 years from the trade deadline ... March 8th 2029 is my over/under.

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by FanIn80

Jesus f'n Christ. How on earth is starting Wolf for all the games to see how "our future #1" actuall handles the load of a #1 goalie anything like Tonya Harding or spiking water bottles.

I can't handle you, man. You're a f'n... I don't even know wtf you are.

seems like you are in the minority on this one

any reasonable person sees the Flames have made all reasonable changes. They are playing the young goalie, they have maxed out their recalls, they have used more players than almost anyone in the league.

You are irrationally mad they won a couple games. 29th in the league since March 8th and you are mad they weren't 32nd. Its ridiculous, and some of the things you suggested aren't even allowable per the cba so maybe just let it go. No team is benching all their vets, Flames have a hard enough time attracting players without pissing off the PA (and breaking league rules lol)

[Bandwagon Surfer]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Not sure I remember a year where they shed 5 UFAs for futures and promoted this many rookies.

Maybe your frustration should have an expiry date?

Psychology wise there is no expiry date. It will take continuing to demonstrate that they have changed over an extended period of time to build confidence and trust. This year has been great, but the Flames have such a bad history, people are getting triggered anything that remotely reminds them of previous years.

It is like if your partner had a drinking problem. Them quitting drinking is great. But if after a short stint of good behaviour, some of their old behaviours come back, you are rightly going to be worried that they fell off the wagon. Even when those behaviours have nothing to do with the drinking, it will take a long time to rebuild the trust.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by Bandwagon Surfer

It is like if your partner had a drinking problem. Them quitting drinking is great. But if after a short stint of good behaviour, some of their old behaviours come back, you are rightly going to be worried that they fell off the wagon. Even when those behaviours have nothing to do with the drinking, it will take a long time to rebuild the trust.

No, it's more like if your partner had a drinking problem 20 years ago, and you split up, and you keep having the same trust issues with someone you only met last year.

Blaming the current management for the whole of the last 34 years is ridiculous.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Bandwagon Surfer

Psychology wise there is no expiry date. It will take continuing to demonstrate that they have changed over an extended period of time to build confidence and trust. This year has been great, but the Flames have such a bad history, people are getting triggered anything that remotely reminds them of previous years.

It is like if your partner had a drinking problem. Them quitting drinking is great. But if after a short stint of good behaviour, some of their old behaviours come back, you are rightly going to be worried that they fell off the wagon. Even when those behaviours have nothing to do with the drinking, it will take a long time to rebuild the trust.

But I think to better use your analogy ...

You have a partner that has a drinking problem. You divorce. You date 11 different people, and then eventually get engaged and remarried again. Now when the new spouse, who doesn't have a drinking problem, pours a glass of wine you panic and throw all the bottles in the house out the patio door.