[PGT] Flames 0 - Wild 3 - Page 14 - Calgarypuck Forums - The Unofficial Calgary Flames Fan Community

Enoch Root · 03-05-2023, 10:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ComixZone

The team is in a spot where the players can be changed.

2024 UFAs:
Elias Lindholm
Noah Hanifin
Chris Tanev
Tyler Toffoli
Mikael Backlund
Nikita Zadorov

2025 UFAs:
Andrew Mangiapane
Dan Vladar

2026 UFA:
Rasmus Andersson
Jacob Markstrom

Contracts beyond that? Blake Coleman (‘27 UFA), Nazem Kadri (‘29 UFA), Jonathan Huberdeau (‘31 UFA).

The time to change the players is 100% now.

Going into next season with any expectation of this team being a top team is only going to lead to disappoint. The organization needs to focus on more than just next season. If there’s to be any hope here, 2023/2024 should be a write off.

And on top of that, ownership is looking to get a new building. The absolute BEST time to be rebuilding is the 3 years prior to a new arena. The perfect scenario is to have an up-and-coming team when the new building opens.

But I don't see ownership coming to the same conclusion.

FBI · 03-05-2023, 10:07 AM

Honestly I would rather watch a system of randomness where the players are attempting to make plays and screwing up then whatever the hell our "system" is. At least that would provide some entertainment value.

PepsiFree · 03-05-2023, 10:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Huberdeau has had a terrible season - everyone agrees. But I think there are a myriad of reasons for that - some on him, many external. Ice-time is one. Linemates are another. Changing teams is a challenge. Completely changing your style of play, at 29, is extremely difficult. Struggling with your new team, in Canada, when you're supposed to be 'the guy' must be an incredible burden.

My point is that there are lots of problems, and Huderdeau is getting more of the blame than he deserves. And for the blame that should fall to him, I think much of it is beyond his control. And I think one of those things is ice-time, and when someone brought it up, you dismissed it.

And my point is that guys go through the same things Huberdeau is going through all the time and don’t completely crater. As I said, he’s been tried with everyone but Dube and he seems to make everyone but Lucic worse. I’m not meaning to dismiss anything about ice-time or whatever, I just have trouble buying it as an explanation for the 180 the player has taken.

I think part of what I’m struggling with in having the conversation is exactly what you said: “He’s getting more blame than he deserves, and the blame that should fall on him is out of his control” which is basically saying none of it is his fault. He’s a $10M elite playmaker. Suggesting nothing is truly his fault just seems absurd to me. If he can go from a 115 point player to a 55 point player over 82 games and none of it is under his control… I don’t know… kind of seems like a disaster of a contract already. Some of this has to be in his control.

PepsiFree · 03-05-2023, 10:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bingo

Pretty sure that's directed at me.

Still not personal right?

I've never squashed conversation, would make little sense to do so.

Honestly think some people when they're upset at their hockey team get even angrier if you won't join them. It's odd but you see it all the time.

If you won’t join them? People get angry if you do join them but disagree on what to be upset about! lol. Someone called me a twat last night… over a hockey opinion.

People here need to relax.

Phil Russell · 03-05-2023, 10:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ComixZone

The team is in a spot where the players can be changed.

2024 UFAs:
Elias Lindholm
Noah Hanifin
Chris Tanev
Tyler Toffoli
Mikael Backlund
Nikita Zadorov

2025 UFAs:
Andrew Mangiapane
Dan Vladar

2026 UFA:
Rasmus Andersson
Jacob Markstrom

Contracts beyond that? Blake Coleman (‘27 UFA), Nazem Kadri (‘29 UFA), Jonathan Huberdeau (‘31 UFA).

The time to change the players is 100% now.

Going into next season with any expectation of this team being a top team is only going to lead to disappoint. The organization needs to focus on more than just next season. If there’s to be any hope here, 2023/2024 should be a write off.

Absolutely. A player sell off and scorched-earth rebuild could work, and I would be supportive if it was strategically made and implemented. However, the Calgary Flames don't rebuild and trying Sutter again with this group next year seems like it would be the least wise decision the franchise could make, of the decisions they will make.

Bingo · 03-05-2023, 10:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

If you won’t join them? People get angry if you do join them but disagree on what to be upset about! lol. Someone called me a twat last night… over a hockey opinion.

People here need to relax.

LOL ...

I hear you.

I've been mocked by my biggest fan and told that having a website doesn't make me better than others.

It's head shaking stuff.

Enoch Root · 03-05-2023, 10:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

And my point is that guys go through the same things Huberdeau is going through all the time and don’t completely crater. As I said, he’s been tried with everyone but Dube and he seems to make everyone but Lucic worse. I’m not meaning to dismiss anything about ice-time or whatever, I just have trouble buying it as an explanation for the 180 the player has taken.

I think part of what I’m struggling with in having the conversation is exactly what you said: “He’s getting more blame than he deserves, and the blame that should fall on him is out of his control” which is basically saying none of it is his fault. He’s a $10M elite playmaker. Suggesting nothing is truly his fault just seems absurd to me. If he can go from a 115 point player to a 55 point player over 82 games and none of it is under his control… I don’t know… kind of seems like a disaster of a contract already. Some of this has to be in his control.

If you're going to quote me, get it right, don't change what I said

Strange Brew · 03-05-2023, 10:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ComixZone

The team is in a spot where the players can be changed.

2024 UFAs:
Elias Lindholm
Noah Hanifin
Chris Tanev
Tyler Toffoli
Mikael Backlund
Nikita Zadorov

2025 UFAs:
Andrew Mangiapane
Dan Vladar

2026 UFA:
Rasmus Andersson
Jacob Markstrom

Contracts beyond that? Blake Coleman (‘27 UFA), Nazem Kadri (‘29 UFA), Jonathan Huberdeau (‘31 UFA).

The time to change the players is 100% now.

Going into next season with any expectation of this team being a top team is only going to lead to disappoint. The organization needs to focus on more than just next season. If there’s to be any hope here, 2023/2024 should be a write off.

Of the 5 longest contracts on the team, 4 were signed before the player logged a single minute with the organization.

It is a problem that has been repeated over and over by the current people running hockey operations.

DazzlinDino · 03-05-2023, 10:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Most of the other guys are doing (at worst) fine under Sutter. Some are doing well.

Gaudreau and Tkachuk “overcame” the hardship of having Sutter as a coach (Gaudreau produced far more under him, Tkachuk is just 10 points ahead of where he was last year).

Why is it Sutter’s fault that Huberdeau sucks? Why is the assumption that he’s a prick who doesn’t motivate him and not that Huberdeau just… sucks?

He’s going to be paid $10M. They should be able to put a literal donkey behind the bench and Huberdeau should put up 80 points. He’s a professional, no? This is his job.

I agree with this. To me it points to a few players that don't want to play for the coach. If your 10 million dollar man doesn't want to play for the coach who's going to win? Johnny Gaudreau was more coachble and played like he wanted to win. Huberdeau Is just sabotaging the on ice effort. What happens if we change coaches and all of a sudden Huberdeau starts playing and Marky starts stopping pucks?

Enoch Root · 03-05-2023, 10:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

Of the 5 longest contracts on the team, 4 were signed before the player logged a single minute with the organization.

It is a problem that has been repeated over and over by the current people running hockey operations.

That is a great point, and a huge problem. I think it stems from a concern that they can't keep players in this market, so they lock them down.

If it were me, I would take a different approach to the same problem - accept that it is not a desirable market, and focus the plan on young players. Build through the draft, and sell off guys as they hit the 27-29 range.

Of course there will be guys that do want to stay (like Backlund for example), and you keep them as leaders. But as an organizational plan, focus on rolling youth, not signing UFAs at full market price.

Bingo · 03-05-2023, 10:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DazzlinDino

I agree with this. To me it points to a few players that don't want to play for the coach. If your 10 million dollar man doesn't want to play for the coach who's going to win? Johnny Gaudreau was more coachble and played like he wanted to win. Huberdeau Is just sabotaging the on ice effort. What happens if we change coaches and all of a sudden Huberdeau starts playing and Marky starts stopping pucks?

I've just never seen effort as an issue.

In fact I think Huberdeau puts too much pressure on himself and it destroyed his season.

Strange Brew · 03-05-2023, 10:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bingo

I've just never seen effort as an issue.

In fact I think Huberdeau puts too much pressure on himself and it destroyed his season.

IMO very hard to judge effort from the outside. People used to complain about Gaudreau's effort and fitness but I saw a guy who tried really hard in games. And i had no clue how he ate or trained.

Is Huberdeau giving maximum effort? He doesn't seem to coast on the ice for sure, but he is also not a high energy player. He does seem to care and is weighed down by his performance. No clue what he does between games.

DazzlinDino · 03-05-2023, 10:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bingo

I've just never seen effort as an issue.

In fact I think Huberdeau puts too much pressure on himself and it destroyed his season.

I don't know, it is a pretty big drop off from last season. By effort I gather we're talking about Huberdeau? I agree with the effort from the team, and I don't want to put the blame on the coach's doorstep, but think Huberdeau is a lot better than he is showing. I know there are some that are saying hes not elite but I dont buy it, I think hes a very good player underperforming..

Jiri Hrdina · 03-05-2023, 10:48 AM

Confidence is a funny thing too and it looks destroyed with him.
In some ways he does remind me of Tanguay, including that both are flow players. When that flow is disrupted it can really impact their game.
Huberdeau looks like a guy who has forgotten what has made him successful for a very long time.
The best thing for him would probably be time away from the rink and a chance to reset this summer.

Bingo · 03-05-2023, 10:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

IMO very hard to judge effort from the outside. People used to complain about Gaudreau's effort and fitness but I saw a guy who tried really hard in games. And i had no clue how he ate or trained.

Is Huberdeau giving maximum effort? He doesn't seem to coast on the ice for sure, but he is also not a high energy player. He does seem to care and is weighed down by his performance. No clue what he does between games.

Absolutely ... can't say for sure from a distance.

But from a distance he seems frustrated and angry about his play and not blasé.

Strange Brew · 03-05-2023, 10:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

That is a great point, and a huge problem. I think it stems from a concern that they can't keep players in this market, so they lock them down.

If it were me, I would take a different approach to the same problem - accept that it is not a desirable market, and focus the plan on young players. Build through the draft, and sell off guys as they hit the 27-29 range.

Of course there will be guys that do want to stay (like Backlund for example), and you keep them as leaders. But as an organizational plan, focus on rolling youth, not signing UFAs at full market price.

I agree with this. And frankly the "undesirability" of the market is overplayed IMO. Do athletes want to play/live in Buffalo, Kansas City, Milwaukee? Pro teams in those markets are excelling and have star players.

The NHL is a cap league. If a player needs a premium to sign here, look elsewhere. No better evidence than Gaudreau's UFA experience to see that there is not some lucrative market outside of Calgary.

It would help if the league would lock down some of the injury shenanigans though so that teams could not exceed the cap so easily.

PepsiFree · 03-05-2023, 10:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

If you're going to quote me, get it right, don't change what I said

Come on, man. Leave this chintzy stuff aside, it doesn’t move the conversation forward.

If I read you wrong, what did I read wrong? Is there something that is his fault? What do you think Huberdeau needs to own and how do we recognize unfair criticism when a lot of what is brushed off doesn’t seem to be impacting anyone else even half as much?

Quote:

Originally Posted by DazzlinDino

I agree with this. To me it points to a few players that don't want to play for the coach. If your 10 million dollar man doesn't want to play for the coach who's going to win? Johnny Gaudreau was more coachble and played like he wanted to win. Huberdeau Is just sabotaging the on ice effort. What happens if we change coaches and all of a sudden Huberdeau starts playing and Marky starts stopping pucks?

And you know the easiest solution to this is to swap the coach, because an 8 year/8 figure contract is tough to move. But what then? Is the entire team from goaltender to coach supposed to be built around one winger? That seems wild.

I wouldn’t be upset if the Flames fired Sutter because realistically it’s the easiest option to try to get things working. But knowing you canned a cup-winner to appease a winger that’s never even done anything in the playoffs? Oof. Not exciting.

zamler · 03-05-2023, 10:55 AM

I love this argument, "it's not Darryl's fault because he is Darryl Sutter."

Enoch Root · 03-05-2023, 10:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

I agree with this. And frankly the "undesirability" of the market is overplayed IMO. Do athletes want to play/live in Buffalo, Kansas City, Milwaukee? Pro teams in those markets are excelling and have star players.

The NHL is a cap league. If a player needs a premium to sign here, look elsewhere. No better evidence than Gaudreau's UFA experience to see that there is not some lucrative market outside of Calgary.

It would help if the league would lock down some of the injury shenanigans though so that teams could not exceed the cap so easily.

Yeah, I'm not saying no UFAs or no one over 27 - some guys are happy to paly here.

What I am saying is that the team has been too focused on UFAs and needs to have an organizational philosophy of building from the draft first.

Flamesfan05 · 03-05-2023, 11:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ComixZone

The team is in a spot where the players can be changed.

2024 UFAs:
Elias Lindholm
Noah Hanifin
Chris Tanev
Tyler Toffoli
Mikael Backlund
Nikita Zadorov

2025 UFAs:
Andrew Mangiapane
Dan Vladar

2026 UFA:
Rasmus Andersson
Jacob Markstrom

Contracts beyond that? Blake Coleman (‘27 UFA), Nazem Kadri (‘29 UFA), Jonathan Huberdeau (‘31 UFA).

The time to change the players is 100% now.

Going into next season with any expectation of this team being a top team is only going to lead to disappoint. The organization needs to focus on more than just next season. If there’s to be any hope here, 2023/2024 should be a write off.

The only thing is you would be wasting Huberdeau, Kadri, Markstrom and Sutter ….if you actually believe in them

I don’t but lots of people in the organization do