[Trade] Hall (50% ret), Speers to ARI for 1st, cond 3rd, Merkley, Schnarr, Bahl

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by New Era

...What really made me believe this was a deal where the return was underwhelming was the fact the Coyotes were not forced to cough up any prospects of note. Not a single one of the guys they talk up as their best prospects were involved in the trade. The things the Coyotes control that they gave up were unknowns at this point. That is a great trade IMO.

Really? From which die-hard Coyotes fans are you getting your information? I personally don't know anything about Arizona's system—as I would expect from pretty much every other poster here, but in a brief overview of various prospect reports and rankings published in the summer I see that Nick Merkley and Kevin Bahl both rank consistently between #2–#5 in their system. For the sake of reference, Flames prospects franked by CP in that range include Dillon Dube, Oliver Kylington, Jakob Pelletier, and Matius Emilio Pettersen.

Please enlighten us about your great insight into Arizona's prospects.

[Winsor_Pilates]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

I look back at the Hamonic trade. That was a huge asset expenditure to acquire a player on a good value contract for three years...but I then have to wonder, what the hell was the point of making that trade if we weren’t going to continue to be aggressive and try and compete in that three year window? Why speed up the rebuild only to get conservative after you’ve already bled years of assets, both in big deals (Hamonic) and smaller useless deals (Elliott, Lazar).

It's easy to say that in hindsight but you're talking a team that had 107 points last year; there's no truth the organization not continuing to try and win during the Hamonic years.

If Bennett/Janko don't suck, and Monahan/Gaudreau don't wilt in the Spring, this team is a cup contender.

Tre has a go for it now, but don't break the future approach.
So far that hasn't worked out, but you can't say they didn't try and compete.

[Jiri Hrdina]

The reality is that the Coyotes prospect base is very shallow. It seems like the Devils basically had the ability to pick what they wanted from anyone not named Hayton or Soderstrom.

I do think Merkley could be a late bloomer. He has had a ton of injuries, but I liked him a lot in his draft year.

[Rando]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Really? From which die-hard Coyotes fans are you getting your information? I personally don't know anything about Arizona's system—as I would expect from pretty much every other poster here, but in a brief overview of various prospect reports and rankings published in the summer I see that Nick Merkley and Kevin Bahl both rank consistently between #2–#5 in their system. For the sake of reference, Flames prospects franked by CP in that range include Dillon Dube, Oliver Kylington, Jakob Pelletier, and Matius Emilio Pettersen.

Please enlighten us about your great insight into Arizona's prospects.

Where one prospects ranks in another's system is pretty much worthless I think.

Merkley is 22 and has 6 goals/16 points in 22 AHL games. Matthew Phillps is 21 and has 28 points in 24 games. Merkley is more in line with Eetu Tuulola, who he's older than. He's trending more Shinkaruk and Poirer at this point. Three AHL seasons and trending down.

To be honest the only interesting parts of the trade are Bahl and the first, and those don't blow you away do they?

Bahl is a big tall guy but his numbers for a 19 year old in his last CHL season aren't impressive. Even Travis Hamonic managed to be PPG in his last year. The 1st round pick will be somewhere in the 20s.. not exactly thrilling.

Most teams could've easily beaten that and New Jersey had to retain to complete the deal.

[cannon7]

We'll see if the Coyotes can get him signed now. My guess is they are going to have a hard time, even if they remain firmly at the top of the division. Think Hall wants to play in a hockey market again. And I'm sure there's going to be a hockey market willing to match salary/term with Arizona in the offseason. Pretty expensive rental if that's the case.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Originally Posted by Rando

Merkley is 22 and has 6 goals/16 points in 22 AHL games. Matthew Phillps is 21 and has 28 points in 24 games.

It's actually 3 goals and 16 points in 26 games (this season - which is trending to be his worst AHL season to date). So yeah, I retract my earlier initial reaction that this was a good haul for the Devils. I feel like a lot of teams could have come up with a return of roughly this quality at the deadline. There'd have been no major downside to taking more time on this.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Rando

Where one prospects ranks in another's system is pretty much worthless I think.

Merkley is 22 and has 6 goals/16 points in 22 AHL games. Matthew Phillps is 21 and has 28 points in 24 games. Merkley is more in line with Eetu Tuulola, who he's older than. He's trending more Shinkaruk and Poirer at this point. Three AHL seasons and trending down.

To be honest the only interesting parts of the trade are Bahl and the first, and those don't blow you away do they?

No, they do not. But then again, I was always expecting the return to be nothing more than picks and prospects for an un-signed Taylor Hall. I wouldn't call this return "underwhelming," since I think it is pretty clearly about as much as any team would be willing to move for a pending UFA who is expected to test the market this summer.

Most teams could've easily beaten that and New Jersey had to retain to complete the deal.

Yes, but 1/3 of all NHL teams are already using LTIR. There was always only a handful of teams with the cap space and the currency available to spend for five months of Taylor Hall's service. Once it was announce that Hall would not sign an extension I was certain the Flames were not in the mix for this trade.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

It's actually 3 goals and 16 points in 26 games (this season - which is trending to be his worst AHL season to date). So yeah, I retract my earlier initial reaction that this was a good haul for the Devils. I feel like a lot of teams could have come up with a return of roughly this quality at the deadline. There'd have been no major downside to taking more time on this.

I suspect their return was very limited if Hall wouldn't talk extension at all with the team trading for him
I do wonder though what the rush to trade him now was, rather than the deadline - except I guess injury risk.

[Scroopy Noopers]

From the Coyotes perspective, I like the way they brought him in prior to the Christmas break. The team has ample time to adjust, and there is less chance of room disruption than when you’re 80% done the season and in first place and you shake up the roster. That always seems to be the knock on teams who bring in guys at the deadline (whether or not it’s factual I don’t know).

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Scroopy Noopers

From the Coyotes perspective, I like the way they brought him in prior to the Christmas break. The team has ample time to adjust, and there is less chance of room disruption than when you’re 80% done the season and in first place and you shake up the roster. That always seems to be the knock on teams who bring in guys at the deadline (whether or not it’s factual I don’t know).

Maybe that is the thinking here, and if so, then it does make some sense. If the TD has taught us anything over the years it is that deadline acquisitions almost never work out. Perhaps the reason for this is the adjustment period.

[Rando]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Yes, but 1/3 of all NHL teams are already using LTIR. There was always only a handful of teams with the cap space and the currency available to spend for five months of Taylor Hall's service. Once it was announce that Hall would not sign an extension I was certain the Flames were not in the mix for this trade.

The Devils would've been smart to wait closer to the deadline IMO.

Salary/Cap hit lower for other team, Jersey still could've retained and that retention would've had a bigger impact. Perhaps this is the deal they liked, then so be it.. but even if your expectations were low, it's still underwhelming.

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by Monahammer

A coincidence, but acquiring Iginla was an example of the exact opposite: nieuwendyk went for a grade a prospect (iggy) and some spare parts.

Iginla wasn't even really a Grade A prospect. If it was up to the Flames, they would have gotten the even better prospect in Todd Harvey. Unfortunately the Stars saw that Harvey was too good and the Flames had to settle with Iginla.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Really? From which die-hard Coyotes fans are you getting your information? I personally don't know anything about Arizona's system—as I would expect from pretty much every other poster here, but in a brief overview of various prospect reports and rankings published in the summer I see that Nick Merkley and Kevin Bahl both rank consistently between #2–#5 in their system. For the sake of reference, Flames prospects franked by CP in that range include Dillon Dube, Oliver Kylington, Jakob Pelletier, and Matius Emilio Pettersen.

Please enlighten us about your great insight into Arizona's prospects.

Sure. This is culled from playing golf with a couple of the executives from the Coyotes' front office, so take it with a grain of salt, especially when you have published rankings to fall back on.

The players they talked a lot about were Soderstrom and Hayton. They spoke very highly of two kids already on the team, and waiting for them to blossom, in Chychrun and Keller. They figure those two will be significant adds to the team as they adjust to the game. A kid they talked up was Cam Dineen, but I think this is because of the deal with Pittsburgh. The player they regret having to give up in the Kessel deal was P.O. Joseph. I'm pretty certain this is why they weren't prepared to go down that road again. Bahl was the only player discussed of the bodies that were moved, and the Coyotes did like him, but saw him as a project. Chara's name came up as a comparable, but with appropriate reverence to the player that Chara became, and acknowledging the long path it took for him to become the player he did. Merkley was not considered a player, and I specifically brought him up because of the Calgary connection. The belief was the clock had run out on him. He was not showing anything and was not in the conversation with players they had high hopes for.

Again, just skuttle butt from a couple of people from within the Coyotes' organization. Nothing official to be certain, and of course no where near as accurate as information posted by the likes of Pronman and his ilk.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Rando

The Devils would've been smart to wait closer to the deadline IMO.

Salary/Cap hit lower for other team, Jersey still could've retained and that retention would've had a bigger impact. Perhaps this is the deal they liked, then so be it.. but even if your expectations were low, it's still underwhelming.

I just think this is the reality of moving pending UFAs mid-season in today's NHL. I can't think of a single recent incident in which the return looked much better than this.

[Hackey]

I dont think the return was underwhelming. Hes a pure rental and in today's NHL it doesn't make much sense to lose a good prospect who could help you for 10 years for a guy who helps you for half a year. Obviously if you win a Cup it's worth it but if you're weighing the cost benefit I think most teams rather keep their prospects. Now if you can sign him like Vegas did with Stone then you're likely willing to give a little more. In Hall's case as a pure rental I think a team would be foolish to give up an A level prospect.

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by New Era

They spoke very highly of two kids already on the team, and waiting for them to blossom, in Chychrun and Keller. They figure those two will be significant adds to the team as they adjust to the game.

They think Keller will be good when he blossoms? The same Keller that has lead their team in scoring for three years now? Did they also think that Oliver Ekman-Larsson might end up as a good defenseman?

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by The Big Chill

It's interesting that Hall has been traded twice, and the return both times seemed pretty underwhelming. His value around the league just musn't be that high.

He’s a one dimensional scoring winger. Some fans falsely believe that is one of the most valuable commodities in the league. But most GMs will prioritize top pairing dmen and top line centres over them by a large value gap.

[1qqaaz]

At the end of the day, the best way to win a cup is to have as many decent stabs at it as possible. I don't think the future should ever be traded away for a pending UFA unless it's for business reasons. Arizona might want to get their fans excited in hopes of eventually raising their internal budget.


Barring a very one-sided trade, I sincerely hope the Flames never do this. I liked the idea of acquiring Stone, because for some reason, it seemed likely that he was willing to re-sign with however acquired him.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

I agree, it seems like a missed opportunity that right now makes me want to be hyper critical of Tree - but then again, if Tree goes out and gets him on July 1st, awesome!

Thinking about this though, I’m not sure I understand Treliving’s plan, or how he projects things - both now, and how he started his time here.

I look back at the Hamonic trade. That was a huge asset expenditure to acquire a player on a good value contract for three years...but I then have to wonder, what the hell was the point of making that trade if we weren’t going to continue to be aggressive and try and compete in that three year window? Why speed up the rebuild only to get conservative after you’ve already bled years of assets, both in big deals (Hamonic) and smaller useless deals (Elliott, Lazar). Hamonic is likely going to move on after this year, making that cost we sunk into acquiring him for three useless seasons...kind of just meaningless and an utter waste. I just really don’t understand the impatience early in the rebuild, and this conservative approach at this stage of it.

Ultimately the Hamonic trade was a mistake and Treliving got a little too excited about his team after they made the playoffs the previous year. The fact Hamonic had less than $4M cap hit and wanted to be in Western Canada the deal did make some sense. Treliving did not anticipate missing the playoffs in year one of that trade. Here we are in year 3 of that deal (with us) and he doesn’t want to talk extension but the team is still fighting for a playoff spot.

I personally am happy the Flames haven’t gone all in on a rental yet because they haven’t proven to be a team that can win in the playoffs. The Hamonic, Smith, and Lazar trades took 5 picks out of Trelivings hands and the team moved Fox in the Canes deal which has resulted in a very mediocre pool.

I think the unfortunate reality for the Flames this year is they will keep their own rentals and potentially lose Brodie, Hamonic, and Frolik for nothing this summer. Hopefully it is enough to get in and make a run.

Personally I would like to add futures in a Hamonic trade this season and see where the chips lie but Treliving needs more assets to work with. I do agree if they are going to pay the price they need to ensure the asset(s) they bring back are here for the long haul.

[TheIronMaiden]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

I just think this is the reality of moving pending UFAs mid-season in today's NHL. I can't think of a single recent incident in which the return looked much better than this.

The Duchene trade

Colorado Avalanche Acquire:
From OTT:
Andrew Hammond · $325,000 (AHL/JR)
Shane Bowers · $0 (Signing Rights)
2019 conditional 1st round pick* (OTT - #4 - Bowen Byram)
2019 3rd round pick (OTT - #63 - Matthew Stienburg)
From NSH:
Vladislav Kamenev · $833,333
Samuel Girard · $728,333
2018 2nd round pick (NSH - #58 - Filip Hållander)
*Conditions: If Ottawa's 2018 1st round pick ends up being a top 10 pick, the Senators have the option to keep the 2018 1st round pick and send Colorado their 2019 1st round pick instead.

Result: Ottawa chose to keep their 2018 1st round pick. Colorado receives Senators 2019 1st round pick.


https://www.capfriendly.com/trades/players/matt-duchene