[News] Proposed expansion draft rules. Expansion decision expected before 2016 draft.

[Resolute 14]

You're not the first person to start "explore" the idea of getting rid of Gio, dammage, merely the latest. Don't assume everything is always about you.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Fire of the Phoenix

You probably protect all of Giordano, Hamilton, Brodie and Hamonic, and protect less forwards under that other scenario that was brought up. Really, the only forwards we absolutely can't live without are Gaudreau, Monahan and Bennett. The rest comes down to asset management. Whichever of those for D is the least valuable would still be more valuable than any of our remaining forwards, including Backlund and Frolik.

Yeah I agree with you. Which probably supports the notion that going after Hamonic puts too much emphasis on the back end at the expense of your forwards.
Unless you had a whopper of a trade lined up for Hamilton...

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by dammage79

Okay. So exploring the idea of the team exposing Giordano to the expansion draft equates to me wanting him off the team?

Yeah it does. Why else would you expose a top 20 defensemen in the NHL and your captain? It makes absolutely no sense at all. Not sure why you can't see that. It is a nonsensical suggestion. We are forced to assume you want Gio off the team because its the only way to make any sense of your idea. Why else would we want to expose one of our best and most important players?

Gaudreau is about to get a huge contract. Using your logic we should explore exposing him or trading him to make room for Mangiapane right? No, that would be assbackwards and silly.

The only way your suggestion makes any sense is if you massively underrate Giordano, you think his game is about to go massively downhill or you irrationally dislike him or his contract and want him off the team for no good reason. Help us make sense of your suggestion because right now it looks silly and stupid.

[Matty81]

The irony of Francis's article today about how the flames will benefit from the expansion draft as teams will have to move second goalies if they don't want to lose them for nothing....

arguably the Flames best prospect is Jon Gillies, who unfortunately just had his first pro season and will likely have to be unprotected (all players with 2 pro seasons).

There is almost no worse position to be in then to have a blue chip goalie prospect just far enough along to be exposed but nowhere near ready for the NHL.

The NHL roster isn't that vulnerable but Kylington, Gillies, Poirier, Shinkaruk and Wotherspoon are all going to have to be dangled in from the AHL.

Gillies and Kylington are pretty high value assets right now, either would be a tough loss. It is a reach but they should think about giving Kylington 5 games or whatever is required at forward so he can be protected as one of the 7 forwards, because I can't see them needing all 7 spots on NHL players who are more valuable.

Kind of a joke how bad the NHL development model is, just randomly parachute players in to a city with no connection at all via the draft, now they just totally crap all over teams that take the time to develop players properly in the AHL by making them the most vulnerable to losing good young players.

[AC]

I'm guessing a pro season will be qualified by games played. Gillies having played 7 games this season probably won't count I bet.

[Calgary4LIfe]

Exposing Giordano certainly sounds extremely silly to everyone at this point. Nobody is (or should) be running Giordano out of town. I don't think I have read that in this thread.

What people are speculating on is a bunch of 'what ifs'. I know my post in particular was (or at least should have been) abundantly clear.

If the expansion draft was this year, or even next year - it is an absolute no-brainer that Giordano gets included.

2, 3 and 4 years? The landscape can be very different. You can only protect 3 defencemen. Do you protect an asset that would probably be winding down, or do you protect an asset that is close to surpassing Giordano at that point instead, and who could be both cost-controlled and a backbone of the defence for a decade to come?

Nobody is saying that Kylington, Hickey, Andersson or anyone else in particular WILL be surpassing Giordano. Nobody knows that right now for sure. The point is that it COULD be a possibility, and I believe the Flames would try and act in the best way possible with regards to asset management. If that means trading Giordano, then they would do so. If it means trading whomever is about to usurp Giordano, they would do so. If worst comes to worst, and you simply have to leave somebody exposed, then I do think it does become a valid point of discussion.

Just depends on how quickly and how well the defensive prospects develop, and how quickly Giordano starts winding down. I think he has many good years left, but I do think he will start dropping in the depth chart before his contract expires. When that is with relation to the expansion draft, and how other prospects (or even trade targets/UFA signings) are performing in relation to him is the question.

My whole point is that it is an extremely easy exercise for the Flames to come up with their protected list today. I think it better be a difficult list to come up with by the time the expansion draft hits (for forwards and defencemen at least, and hopefully goalies as well). That will just mean that the rebuild is going well and the team is ready to compete. It doesn't mean that Giordano sucks and should be run out of town. At that time, he may very well be an easy choice to protect.

[Matty81]

Originally Posted by AC

I'm guessing a pro season will be qualified by games played. Gillies having played 7 games this season probably won't count I bet.

I hope you're right but I doubt it. I don't think his contract rolled over the same way it would have with a junior player who played 7 games and got sent back because he stayed on the AHL roster all year.

I think the Flames are gonna lose him, when you look at the low value players that will be left exposed on their NHL roster, unless he has a catastrophic second season he is the highest value asset that will likely be exposed.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by Matty81

The irony of Francis's article today about how the flames will benefit from the expansion draft as teams will have to move second goalies if they don't want to lose them for nothing....

arguably the Flames best prospect is Jon Gillies, who unfortunately just had his first pro season and will likely have to be unprotected (all players with 2 pro seasons).

There is almost no worse position to be in then to have a blue chip goalie prospect just far enough along to be exposed but nowhere near ready for the NHL.

While it is a risk, I actually look at it another way: security through obscurity.

Given the multitude of goalies who are NHL ready that will be available, I think it unlikely that an expansion team goes for such a prospect. Why risk a complete unknown at the top level when there are quality guys with NHL bodies of work out there?

Or, to Francis' point, if we can turn the expansion draft mess into the acquisition of a relatively young, talented, NHL goaltender, we can suffer the loss of Gilles, even if that unlikely scenario should come to pass.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by Matty81

I hope you're right but I doubt it. I don't think his contract rolled over the same way it would have with a junior player who played 7 games and got sent back because he stayed on the AHL roster all year.

I think the Flames are gonna lose him, when you look at the low value players that will be left exposed on their NHL roster, unless he has a catastrophic second season he is the highest value asset that will likely be exposed.

Right now we don't have a goalie worth protecting besides Gillies so why are you worried? If Gillies is progressing nicely then you would think he'd be the goalie we'd protect. If we acquire a true, young #1 then you can trade Gillies. If you sign a stopgap goalie like Reimer then you expose him and protect Gillies.

Man the hand wringing about players we MIGHT lose in an expansion draft that MIGHT happen is ridiculous. Some of you are paranoid.

[Matty81]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

While it is a risk, I actually look at it another way: security through obscurity.

Given the multitude of goalies who are NHL ready that will be available, I think it unlikely that an expansion team goes for such a prospect. Why risk a complete unknown at the top level when there are quality guys with NHL bodies of work out there?

Or, to Francis' point, if we can turn the expansion draft mess into the acquisition of a relatively young, talented, NHL goaltender, we can suffer the loss of Gilles, even if that unlikely scenario should come to pass.

I think that it's really likely that they'll take lots of second year pros they way it is structured - they will probably go with a mix of guys who can play right now and the highest value assets they can either flip or develop themselves. If they can take 2 or even 3 goalies, which is probably more likely as they will be allowed to steal 30 players... it only makes sense for one of them to be a younger goalie.

Put it this way, what is harder to trade for, a blue chip prospect or a backup goalie? Gillies will be one of the more valuable pieces exposed. And the flames are in a bad spot because there is no way he is ready to play next year in the NHL. Having your best prospect as a goalie who is already turned pro is not a good spot to be in... thus the irony of Francis's article saying the flames are in a great spot.

[dammage79]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

Yeah it does. Why else would you expose a top 20 defensemen in the NHL and your captain? It makes absolutely no sense at all. Not sure why you can't see that. It is a nonsensical suggestion. We are forced to assume you want Gio off the team because its the only way to make any sense of your idea. Why else would we want to expose one of our best and most important players?

Gaudreau is about to get a huge contract. Using your logic we should explore exposing him or trading him to make room for Mangiapane right? No, that would be assbackwards and silly.

The only way your suggestion makes any sense is if you massively underrate Giordano, you think his game is about to go massively downhill or you irrationally dislike him or his contract and want him off the team for no good reason. Help us make sense of your suggestion because right now it looks silly and stupid.

Lol, no it doesn't and don't put words in my mouth.

Let's counter your Gaudreau argument with age, nearly a decade of it differentiating the two. Let's also counter with talent which there is a chasm of difference. Weak argument.

Fine, it doesn't make sense to you. That's great, and to be expected.

Do I need to post this next line in all caps for you to get the point? I do not want Gio off the team!


You remind me of myself when people started mentioning Hudler as trade bait last off season near the draft. I was as irrational about that as you are now about this. But lo and behold, I came around. And look what happened, Hudler got traded and everything is going better than expected.

You don't have to like the fact that I see a future where Gio's contract weighs the team down. Or that his play will decline. But that doesn't mean I am underrating the guy like you suggest, or want him off the team. I just don't have Rose colored Norris glasses for the future of the player.

[Matty81]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

Right now we don't have a goalie worth protecting besides Gillies so why are you worried? If Gillies is progressing nicely then you would think he'd be the goalie we'd protect. If we acquire a true, young #1 then you can trade Gillies. If you sign a stopgap goalie like Reimer then you expose him and protect Gillies.

Man the hand wringing about players we MIGHT lose in an expansion draft that MIGHT happen is ridiculous. Some of you are paranoid.

That's why we come here, to talk about the flames and speculate on the roster, trades, lineups etc....

I think it's a legit concern. The flames best prospect is going to be exposed to the expansion draft unless the goalie they acquire this offseason is so bad that they don't need to be protected.... not good.

[PeteMoss]

Originally Posted by Matty81

That's why we come here, to talk about the flames and speculate on the roster, trades, lineups etc....

I think it's a legit concern. The flames best prospect is going to be exposed to the expansion draft unless the goalie they acquire this offseason is so bad that they don't need to be protected.... not good.

Gillies is a good prospect, but he's not exactly the world's greatest prospect.

They'd have to take Gillies over guys like Malcolm Subban, Juuse Saros, Zach Fucale, etc. We aren't the only team in the league with a good goalie prospect.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by dammage79

You remind me of myself when people started mentioning Hudler as trade bait last off season near the draft. I was as irrational about that as you are now about this. But lo and behold, I came around. And look what happened, Hudler got traded and everything is going better than expected.

How am I being irrational? The talk of exposing our captain and top two defenseman and losing him for nothing lacks any rationality. Suggesting we shouldn't lose him for nothing is extremely rational.

The importance of Hudler versus Giordano? No contest clearly. Gio is far more important. Plays the more important position. Hudler this year showed he's not that great without Johnny and Mony. Hudler with his size and skating disadvantage is likely to see his play drop off in his mid 30's far more quickly than Gio will. Don't really see the parallels there at all, totally different players and situations.

Suggesting we lose one of our best players for nothing is stupid and silly and you have yet to show otherwise.

[dammage79]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

How am I being irrational? The talk of exposing our captain and top two defenseman and losing him for nothing lacks any rationality. Suggesting we shouldn't lose him for nothing is extremely rational.

The importance of Hudler versus Giordano? No contest clearly. Gio is far more important. Plays the more important position. Hudler this year showed he's not that great without Johnny and Mony. Hudler with his size and skating disadvantage is likely to see his play drop off in his mid 30's far more quickly than Gio will. Don't really see the parallels there at all, totally different players and situations.

Suggesting we lose one of our best players for nothing is stupid and silly and you have yet to show otherwise.

Really? I've shown nothing otherwise? I've done that numerous times in this thread today. You're more than welcome to believe otherwise but I'm not here to convince you of anything as I am not arguing for the Flames to expose Giordano. I'm saying there is possibilities of it.

So that's that. You keep on thinking whatever I've said is stupid and silly and I'll keep on keeping my mind open to all possibilities. As outrageous as they may be to you.

[dammage79]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

How am I being irrational? The talk of exposing our captain and top two defenseman and losing him for nothing lacks any rationality. Suggesting we shouldn't lose him for nothing is extremely rational.

The importance of Hudler versus Giordano? No contest clearly. Gio is far more important. Plays the more important position. Hudler this year showed he's not that great without Johnny and Mony. Hudler with his size and skating disadvantage is likely to see his play drop off in his mid 30's far more quickly than Gio will. Don't really see the parallels there at all, totally different players and situations.

Just a couple more things to add here.

1. You're taking my Hudler comments out of context as I was implying that I acted irrationaly then towards others as you are towards myself and others today.

2. I'll argue until I am blue in the darned face all day long that Hudler has had an equal if not greater impact in the development of our core forwards than Gio has or ever will. that's no slight on Gio but I contend your blunt statement that

The importance of Hudler versus Giordano? No contest clearly. Gio is far more important.

is not valid. Hudler was just as essential in the leadership of that room as Gio is. I can live with the idea that Hudler has moved on, but I will never discount what he did for this organization. Whether you like it or not. Whether your opinion varies from my statement or not.


But enough of this. We clearly see things with different eyes and nothing is going to change that.

[Yanda]

I think Kylington is as good as gone, he fits a unique profile where he will be younger than any of the 3rd year players. Maybe my timeline is off but there is no way we use our 3D slots for him and hes one of the few "prospects" that would be available

[dammage79]

Originally Posted by Yanda

I think Kylington is as good as gone, he fits a unique profile where he will be younger than any of the 3rd year players. Maybe my timeline is off but there is no way we use our 3D slots for him and hes one of the few "prospects" that would be available

I don't like it, but it is possible. I really really like Kylington, probably a bit more than Andersson and Hickey. But I'll be totally bummed if any of those three go in the expansion draft.

[Yanda]

Originally Posted by dammage79

I don't like it, but it is possible. I really really like Kylington, probably a bit more than Andersson and Hickey. But I'll be totally bummed if any of those three go in the expansion draft.

Well I dont know what the deadline would be, but Andersson and Hickey would be 1st or 2nd year pro's and would be exempt.

Depending when the cutoff would be, Kylington would either be a 2nd or 3rd year pro. As a 3rd year pro he would be have to be protected or be exposed.

[Calgary4LIfe]

Originally Posted by Yanda

Well I dont know what the deadline would be, but Andersson and Hickey would be 1st or 2nd year pro's and would be exempt.

Depending when the cutoff would be, Kylington would either be a 2nd or 3rd year pro. As a 3rd year pro he would be have to be protected or be exposed.

Someone posted earlier - I think it was Sureloss (or maybe Getback) that they are also looking at NCAA players potentially being included in their list. If so, then Hickey would more than likely be available, as he is finishing up his 2nd year.

As for Gillies, I don't think there is too much to worry about. Gillies has to show that he is NHL-ready I bet before an expansion team claims him. If he is that good, there is still nothing to worry about unless the Flames like whomever is starting more.

I would guess between 4 and 6 goalies get selected in the expansion draft based on 2 teams entering the league. Gillies basically has to be the best goalie prospect, or one of the best backups in the league.