[News] Patrick Kane being investigated for rape. UPD: DA announces no charges

[shogged]

Hope you never have to experience rape hackey, either yourself or someone you love.

[zamler]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

If someone is wrongly accused, they will have their day in court and hopefully the right decision is made.
My point was that when people express doubt in the victim, it potentially demotivates people in the future from reporting rape.

This applies to all criminal acts not just rape. The police are skeptical as part of their job, both in terms of the accused and accuser. This is now the system works effectively, the moment you artificially give more weight and trust in one direction inequality begins.

[H2SO4(aq)]

Originally Posted by zamler

This applies to all criminal acts not just rape. The police are skeptical as part of their job, both in terms of the accused and accuser. This is now the system works effectively, the moment you artificially give more weight and trust in one direction inequality begins.

Thank you, this is the point I've been trying to make.

[Antithesis]

Originally Posted by Hackey

Buddy get off your high horse. I said twice in my post that I and everyone should take a wait and see approach. The reason I included the part you apparently have such issue with was to admit it is the wrong thing to do. Just like thinking the athlete is guilty off the start is wrong as well. Neither should be given the benefit of the doubt and the evidence should speak for itself. Thanks for trying to be all high and mighty though. True hero.

There's no need to be on a high horse when you're doing such a terrific job of wallowing around in the mud. Of course everyone should take a wait and see approach; what I am taking issue with (and what I assume everyone else is taking issue with) is your statement that despite your desire for people to take a wait-and-see approach, you still post ridiculous, dangerous, harmful, and frankly stupid statements like this: "I fully admit when I hear a situation like this I think it's someone trying to get a payday."

Of all the problems that exist with posting tripe like this, the danger that it could directly or indirectly lead to an assault victim choosing not to report the assault is the most significant. Hence, my statement asking you to do us all a favor and not post such ridiculous mental diarrhea. Please feel free to think it all you want; there is no law saying people must not think stupid things.

[the2bears]

Originally Posted by zamler

This applies to all criminal acts not just rape. The police are skeptical as part of their job, both in terms of the accused and accuser. This is now the system works effectively, the moment you artificially give more weight and trust in one direction inequality begins.

This is not how the system should work, nor how it was designed. The police should take all reports of crimes *very* seriously. When victims are treated as liars, stigmatized, when they have their irrelevant sexual history dragged out and paraded in front of everyone, when they're accused of "asking for it" because of their clothing, then they're far less likely to report a rape. Our system should *not* be one that discourages reporting a crime.

[Makarov]

Originally Posted by zamler

This applies to all criminal acts not just rape. The police are skeptical as part of their job, both in terms of the accused and accuser. This is now the system works effectively, the moment you artificially give more weight and trust in one direction inequality begins.

This isn't really true. Police aren't really responsible for testing the credibility of complainants (except perhaps in the most obvious cases). The credibility of complainants is really tested by Crowns pre-trial or, ultimately, at trial.

EDIT: 2bears pretty much beat me to it.

[zamler]

Originally Posted by the2bears

This is not how the system should work, nor how it was designed. The police should take all reports of crimes *very* seriously.

Falsely accusing someone of rape or other illegal acts is also a crime. I hope you are not actually suggesting that making sure the accuser is not lying (which happens all the time) is such a great burden that the police should not bother to question or verify the story or look at the evidence? That is not how justice works I can't believe anyone would think otherwise.

When victims are treated as liars, stigmatized, when they have their irrelevant sexual history dragged out and paraded in front of everyone....

The police treat everyone as "liars" because that is their job. It doesn't stigmatize anyone unfairly, if you want to use that word then everyone who makes allegations are "stigmatized" in the same way.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by the2bears

When victims are treated as liars, stigmatized, when they have their irrelevant sexual history dragged out and paraded in front of everyone, when they're accused of "asking for it" because of their clothing, then they're far less likely to report a rape.

Do police and the courts in North America in 2015 do these things? They challenge testimony, but everyone's testimony is challenged in court. That's the way our system works. It's adversarial.

What's the alternative?

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by zamler

Falsely accusing someone of rape or other illegal acts is also a crime. I hope you are not actually suggesting that making sure the accuser is not lying (which happens all the time) is such a great burden that the police should not bother to question or verify the story or look at the evidence? That is not how justice works I can't believe anyone would think otherwise.
The police treat everyone as "liars" because that is their job. It doesn't stigmatize anyone unfairly, if you want to use that word then everyone who makes allegations are "stigmatized" in the same way.

You do not treat a victim of a crime like a list until they prove it. That's silly

[Hackey]

Originally Posted by Antithesis

There's no need to be on a high horse when you're doing such a terrific job of wallowing around in the mud. Of course everyone should take a wait and see approach; what I am taking issue with (and what I assume everyone else is taking issue with) is your statement that despite this, you still make ridiculous, dangerous, harmful, and frankly stupid statements like this: "I fully admit when I hear a situation like this I think it's someone trying to get a payday."

Of all the problems that exist with posting tripe like this, the danger that it could directly or indirectly lead to an assault victim choosing not to report the assault is the most significant. Hence, my statement asking you to do us all a favor and not post such ridiculous mental diarrhea. Please feel free to think it all you want; there is no law saying people must not think stupid things.

I don't know how many times I can explain that the only reason I said that was to admit it is wrong to jump to conclusions. In the post I say that right after. I also said jumping to any conclusion is wrong for either side. I see absolutely nothing wrong with admitting it's wrong to side with either party.

When I hear an athlete get a rape charge my initial reaction is money grab. When I hear a college student claim rape my initial reaction is the guy did it. As I've said over and over both are wrong. I didn't admit wrong after you and others jumped all over me. I admitted wrong and then you took exception.

Your still trying to tell me I think a certain way despite me clarifying multiple times that's not the case. This isn't something I think about in great detail. When I did give it some thought I realized any number of things could have happened so no one should be given the benefit of the doubt. Again this was before you the hero came riding in to save the day. You act like me admitting wrong is somehow detremental to society lol. Funny how someone who has such issue with me supposedly jumping to conclusions chooses to ignore what I'm actually saying and jump to conclusions himself.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

You do not treat a victim of a crime like a list until they prove it. That's silly

But we don't know if someone has been the victim of a crime until it's proven in court. That's kind of the whole point of a trial.

[zamler]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

But we don't know if someone has been the victim of a crime until it's proven in court. That's kind of the whole point of a trial.

Exactly.

On the issue of making victims afraid to come forward, much much more damage is done by women that make false accusations this creates mistrust of actual victims. What makes the whole thing worse is some groups vastly broadening the definition of rape to the point of absurdity, this trivializes woman that are actually raped and does them a huge disservice and is incredibly disrespectful.

[H2SO4(aq)]

It's funny, when Ferland is accused of assault (bar fight) it is commonly accepted on CP that the accuser was likely just picking on a famous guy and trying to get a settlement. When its rape, suddenly it's "ridiculous, dangerous, harmful, and frankly stupid" to jump to the "false accusation/payday" opinion. Now i realize one is a gravely more severe crime than the other, but as pertaining to the law, as zamler has articulated, "the moment you artificially give more weight and trust in one direction, inequality begins". Perhaps its time to trust the system to be skeptical of both parties in order to uncover the truth and bring justice.

[Peanut]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

But we don't know if someone has been the victim of a crime until it's proven in court. That's kind of the whole point of a trial.

Mmm, not necessarily. The point of the trial is whether the defendent is guilty of the crime they've been accused of. Not whether there was a victim.

Somebody could be murdered, and someone is arrested for said murder, tried and found not guilty. Doesn't change the fact that there is still a murder victim. They either just didn't nab the right suspect or they couldn't satisfy the burden of proof or unreasonable doubt (or whatever the term is. I'm not a lawyer)

Maybe some cases of rape are not as clear cut in regards to establishing a victim as it would be in a violent murder. But regardless I don't think the point of a rape trial is to prove there was a victim.

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

But we don't know if someone has been the victim of a crime until it's proven in court. That's kind of the whole point of a trial.

Yes. Neither side of a liar until proven so. That's my point.

Kane is innocent until proven guilty.

You still don't make the victim prove her own rape before looking into it because she's a liar.

[the2bears]

Originally Posted by zamler

Falsely accusing someone of rape or other illegal acts is also a crime. I hope you are not actually suggesting that making sure the accuser is not lying (which happens all the time) is such a great burden that the police should not bother to question or verify the story or look at the evidence? That is not how justice works I can't believe anyone would think otherwise.
The police treat everyone as "liars" because that is their job. It doesn't stigmatize anyone unfairly, if you want to use that word then everyone who makes allegations are "stigmatized" in the same way.

Is that how you read my post? When I talked about victims not reporting a crime you jumped to that? "Happens all the time"? How often are you talking about?

[the2bears]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Do police and the courts in North America in 2015 do these things? They challenge testimony, but everyone's testimony is challenged in court. That's the way our system works. It's adversarial.

What's the alternative?

I would think defence lawyers still do. I think there's a strong difference between investigating and finding facts and thinking victims are liars.

[combustiblefuel]

Originally Posted by Hackey

I fully admit I have zero details but I find it hard to believe Kane would rape a girl. He might be a bit of a dick but this seems a bit extreme. A girl who had her feelings hurt somehow in the situation or looking for a pay day seems more plausible but I guess you never know.

After what Bill "righteous" Cosby did I belive anyone you dont expect has the capabilities to commit these types of acts.

We will need to wait untill the rape kit comes back from their lab.

[mikephoen]

Originally Posted by justafan

I did some research and of course you will find most assaults are never reported. You are correct, 60% of sexual abuse/assault are on young women. Girls under age of 17. 83% of disabled women will be assaulted in their lifetime….that's pretty sexy. 1/5 involve a weapon. 80% of assailants are family and friends. Of every 100 incidents only 6 are reported. Oh and last rape in Calgary I read about she was in her 80's.

I'm pretty sceptical about these stats. 83% of disabled women will be assaulted in their lifetimes? That seems impossibly high.

And how do they come up with the stat that 6 out of 100 incidents are reported? If they aren't reported, then how do they know they happened?

[Makarov]

Originally Posted by zamler

What makes the whole thing worse is some groups vastly broadening the definition of rape to the point of absurdity, this trivializes woman that are actually raped and does them a huge disservice and is incredibly disrespectful.

This is a fascinating comment. Which groups? And what part of the definition do you take issue with?