[News] Patrick Kane being investigated for rape. UPD: DA announces no charges

[saillias]

Originally Posted by Antithesis

That's terrible. When you hear about reasons why victims of sexual assault refuse to report it, it's because of attitudes like this. Go ahead and think things like this if you must, but please do everyone a favor and keep it to yourself.

I said this to him earlier this afternoon almost word for word. He doesn't get it/care

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by diane_phaneuf

Kane can be assumed innocent until proven guilty

The accuser can be assumed to be telling the truth until proven false

believing one of those doesn't stop you from believing the other, if you assume one isn't true with the amount of evidence currently out there your bias is showing

As of right now, is there even evidence? All I know is Kane is being investigated. That investigation could turn up nothing. I hope it doesn't.

If it does, #### him, he's scum.

[Hackey]

Originally Posted by Antithesis

That's terrible. When you hear about reasons why victims of sexual assault refuse to report it, it's because of attitudes like this. Go ahead and think things like this if you must, but please do everyone a favor and keep it to yourself.

Buddy get off your high horse. I said twice in my post that I and everyone should take a wait and see approach. The reason I included the part you apparently have such issue with was to admit it is the wrong thing to do. Just like thinking the athlete is guilty off the start is wrong as well. Neither should be given the benefit of the doubt and the evidence should speak for itself. Thanks for trying to be all high and mighty though. True hero.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by saillias

Edit: this is also why many legitimate rape victims don't actually go to police or come forward at all. There is no "looking for a payday" the loss of reputation, negative public perception, victim shaming etc. makes it much much harder to go to police or come forward especially when a powerful person is involved. 99% of people aren't actually sociopaths looking for the quickest buck no matter the cost, guys.

Why is it more cynical to recognize that a small fraction of women lie about rape than it is to recognize that a small fraction of men commit rape? Surely committing rape is the worse crime.

Our justice system is deliberately set up to put a high standard of proof on the plaintiff/state, with the recognition that this will mean a lot more people will get away with serious crimes than will be sentenced for serious crimes they did not commit. It's not misogynist - we treat murder the same way.

Originally Posted by Jets4Life

It has nothing to do with sex or rejection. It's about power over someone.

That's a political sentiment, but it has no scientific basis. Forced copulation is found in many species, including primates. There's a reason 20-year-old women are more likely to be raped than 70-year-old women, and why 20-year-old men are more likely to commit rape than 70-year-old men. There may be issues of power at work in a given assault, but to say rape has nothing to do with sex is nothing but dogma.

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by Hackey

Buddy get off your high horse. I said twice in my post that I and everyone should take a wait and see approach. The reason I included the part you apparently have such issue with was to admit it is the wrong thing to do. Just like thinking the athlete is guilty off the start is wrong as well. Neither should be given the benefit of the doubt and the evidence should speak for itself. Thanks for trying to be all high and mighty though. True hero.

I don't think people are objecting to "wait and see" but rather this:

"I fully admit when I hear a situation like this I think it's someone trying to get a payday."

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Why is it more cynical to recognize that a small fraction of women lie about rape than it is to recognize that a small fraction of men commit rape? Surely committing rape is the worse crime.

I'll disagree here, at least with the absolute. Lying about a rape could just as easily ruin someone's life, marriage or relationships, and probably have somewhat similar (of course different) emotional responses as a rape (loss of control, anxiety, fear, etc. etc.).

But I honestly couldn't say what I would rather have happened to me, be raped or have someone "credible" lie about me raping them.

[CaramonLS]

Originally Posted by Itse

3) There is no other crime with which the chance of false accusation is considered an equally likely option in everyday conversation, or with which it's considered somehow a crucial issue which must always be brought up.

The reason for this is because it is one of the toughest crimes to prove a crime actually took place, especially if there is a delay in reporting the allegation.

Murder? There should be a body around.
Theft? Generally easy enough to prove something is missing.
Assault? Well, usually there is some damage..

[justafan]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Why is it more cynical to recognize that a small fraction of women lie about rape than it is to recognize that a small fraction of men commit rape? Surely committing rape is the worse crime.

Our justice system is deliberately set up to put a high standard of proof the plaintiff/state, with the recognition that this will mean a lot more people will get away with serious crimes than will sentenced for serious crimes they did not commit. It's not misogynist - we treat murder the same way.



That's a political sentiment, but it has no scientific basis. Forced copulation is found in many species, including primates. There's a reason 20-year-old women are more likely to be raped than 70-year-old women, and why 20-year-old men are more likely to commit rape than 70-year-old men. There may be issues of power at work in a given assault, but to say rape has nothing to do with sex is nothing but dogma.

I did some research and of course you will find most assaults are never reported. You are correct, 60% of sexual abuse/assault are on young women. Girls under age of 17. 83% of disabled women will be assaulted in their lifetime….that's pretty sexy. 1/5 involve a weapon. 80% of assailants are family and friends. Of every 100 incidents only 6 are reported. Oh and last rape in Calgary I read about she was in her 80's.

[Makarov]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Why is it more cynical to recognize that a small fraction of women lie about rape than it is to recognize that a small fraction of men commit rape?

What makes you think that those fractions are even remotely similar?

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Makarov

What makes you think that those fractions are even remotely similar?

They're both small numbers. But if you have reliable data, I'd welcome seeing it.

[H2SO4(aq)]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

I don't think people are objecting to "wait and see" but rather this:

"I fully admit when I hear a situation like this I think it's someone trying to get a payday."

Yet it is considered much more politically correct to say "I fully admit when I hear a situation like this, I think the accused is guilty."

His view is equally as valid as the one I just raised ^^.

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by H2SO4(aq)

Yet it is considered much more politically correct to say "I fully admit when I hear a situation like this, I think the accused is guilty."

His view is equally as valid as the one I just raised ^^.

Except that the thought that one won't be believed is one of the reasons why rape is under-reported. So that view is more damaging.

[Makarov]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

They're both small numbers. But if you have reliable data, I'd welcome seeing it.

According to the 2004 GSS, there were about 512,000 incidents of sexual assault, representing a rate of 1,977 incidents per 100,000 population aged 15 and older. Given that most sexual assaults go unreported, police-reported sexual assault counts are notably lower, with about 24,200 sexual offences recorded by police in 2007.

SOURCE: http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/85f0033...ultats-eng.htm

There is no way of knowing which of those allegations of sexual assault were true or false. However, even if we (absurdly) cynically believed that every report of sexual assault to police was false in 2007, and only half of reports of sexual assaults to the GSS (with no real possible motive to fabricate) were true, the number of true sexual assault reports in 2004(255,000) absolutely dwarfs the number of false sexual assault reports (24,200).

Its a very crude exercise, but I think convincingly demonstrates that the two "fractions" are on a totally different order of magnitude.

[H2SO4(aq)]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

Except that the thought that one won't be believed is one of the reasons why rape is under-reported. So that view is more damaging.

Putting someone in jail or ruining their credibility/reputation when they are innocent is extremely damaging. Both are heinous, both ruin lives.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by H2SO4(aq)

Putting someone in jail or ruining their credibility/reputation when they are innocent is extremely damaging. Both are heinous, both ruin lives.

One is worse.
Not hard to tell which.

[Hackey]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

I don't think people are objecting to "wait and see" but rather this:

"I fully admit when I hear a situation like this I think it's someone trying to get a payday."

Originally Posted by Hackey

I fully admit when I hear a situation like this I think it's someone trying to get a payday. The evidence could prove that right or wrong. Realstically I should just take a wait and see approach. We shouldn't be giving either side the benefit of the doubt.

Originally Posted by Hackey

The reason I included the part you apparently have such issue with was to admit it is the wrong thing to do.

Already said it was the wrong thing to do. Already explained why I said it.
Guys more concerned with trying to judge me than discussing the actual topic. 4 of 5 posts today. Get a new hobby man.

[justafan]

Originally Posted by H2SO4(aq)

Putting someone in jail or ruining their credibility/reputation when they are innocent is extremely damaging. Both are heinous, both ruin lives.

Very true. In jail for any crime and innocent is terrible. But there is a reason they call rape victims "survivors." They live a life often with post tramatic stress, nightmares and fear. There can be pregnancy and STDs. I walk out to my car, at night after work, with my fingers around keys so can use as a weapon. I'm not a young girl, I have daughters. This is how women approach situations. I constantly reminded my youngest to be careful, don't leave your drink unattended etc. She has helped many girls obviously drugged with date rape drugs, in pubs, to get home safely. This thread has gone beyond Kane. It has also left me with a sense of frustration with the ignorance on here about women being molested and assaulted. And sadness.

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by H2SO4(aq)

Putting someone in jail or ruining their credibility/reputation when they are innocent is extremely damaging. Both are heinous, both ruin lives.

If someone is wrongly accused, they will have their day in court and hopefully the right decision is made.
My point was that when people express doubt in the victim, it potentially demotivates people in the future from reporting rape. So while both have dire consequences for the individuals in each specific case, the doubting of the victims, has a larger long-term negative consequence.

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by Hackey

Already said it was the wrong thing to do. Already explained why I said it.
Guys more concerned with trying to judge me than discussing the actual topic. Get a new hobby man.

Ain't about you man. Just the ignorant stuff you said.
Moving on.

[Hackey]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

Ain't about you man. Just the ignorant stuff you said.
Moving on.

Yeah admitting your wrong and making a change for the better is so ignorant.