The 2016 Toronto Blue Jays Thread

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by flambers

Yet, these type of trades happen all of the time... Teams will trade prospects for pitchers (i.e. David Price trade).

Dickey is a solid pitcher, however he is not an ace.

The Dickey trade is much better than the Price trade because Price was a rental. Yes Syndegaard is good but Dickey will have given the Jays about a 1000 innings once it's all said and done.

[flambers]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

The Dickey trade is much better than the Price trade because Price was a rental. Yes Syndegaard is good but Dickey will have given the Jays about a 1000 innings once it's all said and done.

yep, Dickey might not make 1000 innings but he most certainly will be in the 800 to 900 range.

Unfortunately with Baseball, teams will always trade prospects for rentals...

To get a rental like David Price, a team has to send prospects.....

[Fire of the Phoenix]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

The Dickey trade is much better than the Price trade because Price was a rental. Yes Syndegaard is good but Dickey will have given the Jays about a 1000 innings once it's all said and done.

While you may be right, the only year Dickey's innings mattered was last year... because Price was acquired. Other than that, all of Dickey's innings were wasted on mediocre teams that did nothing.

It would be like if Treliving traded 6OA for Jaromir Jagr. Jagr might give you 3-4 years of acceptable returns on a bad team but that's not how you build a winner. The Dickey trade would've been much more palatable had the Jays been contenders at the time of the deal. Just a brutally bad move, one of the worst in the last ten years for the Jays.

[flames_fan_down_under]

I doubt there will be a more controversial player for the Jays than R.A. Dickey.

The emergence of Sanchez this season as a real stud young pitcher has softened the Syndergaard blow, for me at least.

[Hot_Flatus]

Originally Posted by Fire of the Phoenix

Dickey was an ace at the time. I still thought it was a bad move when it happened, but they Jays didn't get the guy they traded for. I think they underestimated how taxing the AL, and the AL East in particular, would be on an ageing knuckle baller.

How can you ever call an aging knuckle baller the ace of a staff? Dickey was/is a good specialty pitcher that had an amazing year in a pitchers park. You can't call him an ace based on that. His career as a starter has been extremely pedestrian save for that one season.

I don't mind the idea of trading Syndgard at that time but the target was all wrong. Now it just sucks that Jays fans are stuck with a pretty mediocre pitcher that really only ever delivers for portions of a season and Syndgard is looking like he might be one of the top pitchers in baseball.

[Fire of the Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Hot_Flatus

How can you ever call an aging knuckle baller the ace of a staff? Dickey was/is a good specialty pitcher that had an amazing year in a pitchers park. You can't call him an ace based on that. His career as a starter has been extremely pedestrian save for that one season.

I don't mind the idea of trading Syndgard at that time but the target was all wrong. Now it just sucks that Jays fans are stuck with a pretty mediocre pitcher that really only ever delivers for portions of a season and Syndgard is looking like he might be one of the top pitchers in baseball.

Jays bought laughably high, that's true, but Dickey was still a legitimate ace that year. Some players peaks are short and come later in their careers, especially knuckballers, it doesn't change what he was for three years in New York. His best season was 2012, but he was still very, very good in the two previous years. He won the Cy Young, he was an ace, at least in my view.

It wasn't hard to imagine him falling off though. That's what made the trade so bad at the time.

[Fire of the Phoenix]

Originally Posted by flames_fan_down_under

I doubt there will be a more controversial player for the Jays than R.A. Dickey.

The emergence of Sanchez this season as a real stud young pitcher has softened the Syndergaard blow, for me at least.

Could've had both, that's what stings for me. If the Jays are going to be a penny-pinching franchise indefinitely, I really hope they go with a Tampa Bay Rays model. This straddling the line between legitimate big market team and a small market team is annoying. Can't do both, pick one approach.

[JayP]

Originally Posted by Fire of the Phoenix

While you may be right, the only year Dickey's innings mattered was last year... because Price was acquired. Other than that, all of Dickey's innings were wasted on mediocre teams that did nothing.

It would be like if Treliving traded 6OA for Jaromir Jagr. Jagr might give you 3-4 years of acceptable returns on a bad team but that's not how you build a winner. The Dickey trade would've been much more palatable had the Jays been contenders at the time of the deal. Just a brutally bad move, one of the worst in the last ten years for the Jays.

That's a very exaggerated comparison. Dickey was coming off a Cy Young season and also a stretch of 3 elite seasons. Jagr is a 2nd line forward. A much better comparison would be Joe Thornton.

The deal obviously hasn't worked out, but you can't just assume Syndergaard turns into the player he is going through the Jays farm system. The Mets clearly have a knack for developing starting pitching and that's something you can't say the same about the Jays under AA. I doubt Syndergaard becomes the player he is now developing with the Jays.

[cross16]

Originally Posted by Fire of the Phoenix

Could've had both, that's what stings for me. If the Jays are going to be a penny-pinching franchise indefinitely, I really hope they go with a Tampa Bay Rays model. This straddling the line between legitimate big market team and a small market team is annoying. Can't do both, pick one approach.

This is why it bothered me too. If you want to build a consistant contender on the cheap, stack your pitching and to do so you don't trade someone with the arm that Syndegauard had and you definetly don't deal him for a knuckler who can go south at any moment.

What's done is done and I guess I should move on but unforutantley I think that is the reason that no matter how successful Dickey is/has been it won't matter and its multiplied by the fact that the Jays havn't had any more success than the Mets since they made trade.

[TheAlpineOracle]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

The Dickey trade is much better than the Price trade because Price was a rental. Yes Syndegaard is good but Dickey will have given the Jays about a 1000 innings once it's all said and done.

The Dickey trade was horrible any way you slice it. Syndergaard and D'arnault were widely regarded as two of the best prospects in baseball. The Jays could have had any pitcher they wanted for the package, but instead they went with a 39 year old gimmick pitcher where there was questions if his success would continue to last in a very weak NL East, let alone playing in the AL East. He had about 1 and half years of success prior to being acquired.

The Jays got Dickey because he was a known name who could be retained relatively cheap given his age and had the "potential" to be an ace for a few years (though most people at the time really questioned that given the nature of his pitch and age).

This trade came at one of the lowest points in Jays history. Next to no one in the stands, completely apathy about baseball in the country, and long-term Jays fans were mad as well about the frugality of Rogers. AA was tasked with getting some names on the field to quite down the revolt of Jays fans, and the Dickey and Reyes traded did just that, but they did not make sense from a baseball perspective and never did as there was serious holes in that roster.

That trade never happens today, not in a million years. No one could guarantee Syndergaard would accomplish what he is doing today, but he was as close to a guarantee as you can get in baseball. He's was in the Bryce Harper/Steven Strausburg/Mike trout level of hype in most circles.


The Price trade made sense and accomplished exactly what is was intended to do. The Jays basically gave up on B grade prospect and a couple of major league ready throw ins for a rental players. Don't let the hipster news articles on Norris, his beard, and his van fool you. He was never anything more than a solid prospect. He's not in the league of Syndergaard for Hoffman (given up for Tulo).

[TheAlpineOracle]

Originally Posted by JayP

That's a very exaggerated comparison. Dickey was coming off a Cy Young season and also a stretch of 3 elite seasons. Jagr is a 2nd line forward. A much better comparison would be Joe Thornton.

The deal obviously hasn't worked out, but you can't just assume Syndergaard turns into the player he is going through the Jays farm system. The Mets clearly have a knack for developing starting pitching and that's something you can't say the same about the Jays under AA. I doubt Syndergaard becomes the player he is now developing with the Jays.

It's not an exageration at all. Syndergaard was widely considered to be the best pitching prospect in baseball.

Is it a guarantee he going to do what he's doing today? No, but all the signs pointed towards it (he had one full year in the minors at that point and was absolutely destroying teams).

I don't think you can get mad at the Jays for trading him (they really needed a boost), but for them to trade the best pitching and catching prospects in baseball (D'Arnault was major league ready) for a 39 year gimmick pitcher with 1.5 years of success in what was one of the worst divisions in baseball at the time was absolutely criminal. They could have had anyone with that package.

AA could have won Toronto a World Series, and i'd still be questioning him as GM after that trade. It has the potential to go down as one of the worst trades in the history of baseball.

[nik-]

I hated the Dickey trade then and I still hate it

[Senator Clay Davis]

Originally Posted by TheAlpineOracle

AA could have won Toronto a World Series, and i'd still be questioning him as GM after that trade. It has the potential to go down as one of the worst trades in the history of baseball.

Eaaaasy tiger. It's a bad trade for sure, but it's a 3/10 trade and not a 1/10 trade. It will go down as one of the worst Blue Jays trades ever, but not one of the worst in baseball ever, unless Syndergaard becomes Bumgarner level good.

[TheAlpineOracle]

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

Eaaaasy tiger. It's a bad trade for sure, but it's a 3/10 trade and not a 1/10 trade. It will go down as one of the worst Blue Jays trades ever, but not one of the worst in baseball ever, unless Syndergaard becomes Bumgarner level good.

Syndergaard becoming Bumgarner good is a real possibility at this point (He's 23 years old and probably has about 2-3 years to own his skills and than another 8-9 years before he starts to decline.

It's a 1/10 trade, all day, every day. It's a 3/10 trade even if Syndergaard falls off the face of the earth because the return they could have got for that package at the time was endless.

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by TheAlpineOracle

AA could have won Toronto a World Series, and i'd still be questioning him as GM after that trade. It has the potential to go down as one of the worst trades in the history of baseball.

Alpine... I think you've officially jumped the shark.

Babe Ruth for 100K
Pedro Martinez for Delino DeShields
Sammy Sosa For Harold Baines
Alex Rodriguez For Alfonso Soriano
Mike Napoli for Vernon Wells (and his contract)

... I can go on if you'd like. The Dickey Trade was not a good trade. But it is a million miles away from one of the worst.

[TheAlpineOracle]

Originally Posted by Parallex

Alpine... I think you've officially jumped the shark.

Babe Ruth for 100K
Pedro Martinez for Delino DeShields
Sammy Sosa For Harold Baines
Alex Rodriguez For Alfonso Soriano
Mike Napoli for Vernon Wells (and his contract)

... I can go on if you'd like. The Dickey Trade was not a good trade. But it is a million miles away from one of the worst.

It's miles away now, but it has the potential to be right up there with those. If in ten years time Syndergaard has a couple of Cy Youngs and a hall of fame career, it's right up there.

I don't care that Dickey won a Cy Young with the Mets, that doesn't change the fact on the Jays he's consistently a sub .500 pitcher with a 4.00 ERA. Those are waiver wire numbers.

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by TheAlpineOracle

Those are waiver wire numbers.

Don't be silly. Waiver wire players are by their nature replacement level Dickey has been worth roughly 2WAR per season he's been with the Jays. That's roughly league average. That's what Dickey is... an average performance MLB inning-eater. That has value.

Would I rather have Syndergaard? Sure. Would I rather have Hutchison (the most likely internal replacement)? Nope.

[Senator Clay Davis]

Originally Posted by TheAlpineOracle

Syndergaard becoming Bumgarner good is a real possibility at this point (He's 23 years old and probably has about 2-3 years to own his skills and than another 8-9 years before he starts to decline.

It's a 1/10 trade, all day, every day. It's a 3/10 trade even if Syndergaard falls off the face of the earth because the return they could have got for that package at the time was endless.

A 1/10 trade means Dickey basically never pitched, was injured all the time, or was one of the worst pitchers in baseball. As Parallex pointed out, he was basically right in line with an average starter. It's a bad trade, but not one of the worst in baseball history. It was a win now trade and it just didn't work out. The As made a significantly worse trade getting rid of Donaldson.

[Karl]

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

A 1/10 trade means Dickey basically never pitched, was injured all the time, or was one of the worst pitchers in baseball. As Parallex pointed out, he was basically right in line with an average starter. It's a bad trade, but not one of the worst in baseball history. It was a win now trade and it just didn't work out. The As made a significantly worse trade getting rid of Donaldson.

Exactly. And who's Donaldson's 3B replacement for the As now? Danny Valencia. Nuff said.

[TheAlpineOracle]

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

A 1/10 trade means Dickey basically never pitched, was injured all the time, or was one of the worst pitchers in baseball. As Parallex pointed out, he was basically right in line with an average starter. It's a bad trade, but not one of the worst in baseball history. It was a win now trade and it just didn't work out. The As made a significantly worse trade getting rid of Donaldson.

How is it any worse using the same logic you are using for Dickey? The A's got Lowrie. Sure he was no MVP, but he played every day and was simply average.

You are completely discounting the fact that the Jays could have had absolutely any pitcher on the market they wanted for the package. The problem with the Syndergaard trade isn't so much what they gave up, it's what they could of got versus what they did.