Your belief about September, 11th, 2001

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by mikey_the_redneck

There are many security cameras watching the Pentagon from all sides. The authorities decide to release the one that clearly shows nothing.....it is like they are trying to hide somthing.

And on top of that, the eye witness reports do not support the flight path or the speed of the plane that flew by the Pentagon.

I think you're over exagerating the security camera arrangements at the pentagon.

And your totally ignoring the eye witnesses that actually saw the plane moments before the impact.

[Weiser Wonder]

I actually have a lot of sympathy for Bush sitting there. It's obvious he's in full panic mode. I don't think there's anything that bad about him sitting there, but I guess I never expected Bush to be a guy who handled the Presidency that well.

It's kind of what is endearing about Bush, how he just seems vulnerable and human in his interactions. Obviously, it's something of a put on, but nonetheless it's that personality that got him elected and loved by so many (until around 2006), despite his administration being filled with the corrupt and incompetent.

[jar_e]

Originally Posted by mikey_the_redneck

And on top of that, the eye witness reports do not support the flight path or the speed of the plane that flew by the Pentagon.

I can guarantee there's as many eye witness reports that report seeing a plane that those who did not. With such a traumatic experience, perception if a powerful thing, and either side can be mistakened.

But what's the point of even using that as a part of your debate? Its pretty obvious both sides have "eye witnesses" who support their own cause.

Furthermore, and to a larger sense, what's even the point of debating this issue? No offense Mikey, but I can't see you convincing anyone to be a "truther"....and I'm pretty positive no one is going to be able to convince you of believing the non-conspiracy side. It just seems kinda redundant and pointless.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by mikey_the_redneck

My own research has led me to believe that it was shot down. There was very little debris at the Shanksville site....

Of course there's very little debris, the plane basically dove into the ground, it was pretty much a pile driver effect in that any debris would be restricted to a relatively tiny area.

If the plane had been hit by an air to air missile, you would have had a primary explosion which would have spread at the very least engine parts over a wide area. Plus if it was shot down then you would have to conclude that the terrorist pilot would still be in control of the plane and would attempt to salvage his flight and his mission, which means that he would probably have pulled back on the wheel to nose it up, and he's compensate for the damage with rudder if it was an engine hit (Which a heat seeker would guide to) which means that the plane would have probably gone it at a much lesser angle and you would have had an arrow head crash marker with debris all along it.

[Phaneuf3]

Originally Posted by mikey_the_redneck

There are many security cameras watching the Pentagon from all sides. The authorities decide to release the one that clearly shows nothing.....it is like they are trying to hide somthing.

And on top of that, the eye witness reports do not support the flight path or the speed of the plane that flew by the Pentagon.

You're right - they're watching stuff like the doors and the ground and places they'd expect to have to watch. I doubt they have many pointed at the horizon.
Security cameras also generally have relatively low framerates and not the best picture quality; how good and clear of a picture do you expect them to get of an object screaming by at ~500-600 mph (assuming they hit at cruising speed)?

[mikey_the_redneck]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

I think you're over exagerating the security camera arrangements at the pentagon.

And your totally ignoring the eye witnesses that actually saw the plane moments before the impact.

There are many building around the Pentagon that had tapes confiscated, and only one was released.

I have seen tons of eye witness testimony that say they saw a plane right before impact as well but didn't actually see it make impact. They all mentioned how slow the plane was going.

A Pentagon employee actually saw a low flying plane cruise by the back side of the Pentagon, that is the opposite side of impact.

[Flacker]

Originally Posted by mikey_the_redneck

My own research has led me to believe that it was shot down. There was very little debris at the Shanksville site....

The aircraft hit the ground inverted and at a 40 degree nose down angle at 563 MPH or 906km/h as confirmed by the flight data recorders on UA93. At what point in your "research" did you learn basic physics?

Most of the aircraft debris would be burried in the crater created by such a violent impact. The crater was 8-10 feet deep and 30-50ft wide, I wonder where the large chunks of airplane are?? How about you leave the crash "research" to the NTSB.

NTSB photo of one of the larger pieces of debris found at the crash site:

Hmm, that kind of looks like United Airlines fuselage.

[mikey_the_redneck]

Originally Posted by Phaneuf3

You're right - they're watching stuff like the doors and the ground and places they'd expect to have to watch. I doubt they have many pointed at the horizon.
Security cameras also generally have relatively low framerates and not the best picture quality; how good and clear of a picture do you expect them to get of an object screaming by at ~500-600 mph (assuming they hit at cruising speed)?

Well why don't they release ALL the tapes then? If they don't show anything of interest, why not release them?

[VladtheImpaler]

I love Mikey. I told him he is nuts because there was no point to staging the Pentagon hit, but he keeps arguing the little details, like camera positions.

[mikey_the_redneck]

Originally Posted by Flacker

The aircraft hit the ground inverted and at a 40 degree nose down angle at 563 MPH or 906km/h as confirmed by the flight data recorders on UA93. At what point in your "research" did you learn basic physics?

Most of the aircraft debris would be burried in the crater created by such a violent impact. The crater was 8-10 feet deep and 30-50ft wide, I wonder where the large chunks of airplane are?? How about you leave the crash "research" to the NTSB.

NTSB photo of one of the larger pieces of debris found at the crash site:

Hmm, that kind of looks like United Airlines fuselage.

Yeah I have seen that. Like I said, there was very little debris.

Burried in the crater? You mean the plane became one with the soil?Ha.......you should look at aerial site photos, there is barely anything left.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by mikey_the_redneck

There are many 9/11 whistle blowers, you just dont hear about them in the mainstream media.

It is an insult to the media to call the crap you read "media".

Like any other cult, truthers build and reinforce delusions within their own small group.

[Phaneuf3]

Originally Posted by mikey_the_redneck

There are many building around the Pentagon that had tapes confiscated, and only one was released.

I have seen tons of eye witness testimony that say they saw a plane right before impact as well but didn't actually see it make impact.

A Pentagon employee actually saw a low flying plane cruise by the back side of the Pentagon, that is the opposite side of impact.

ok hang on.... putting all these loose ends and theories together i think i see a clear picture now:
the plane was taken over by government operatives and flown to a secret location. everyone on board was killed and the plane was destroyed. they then flew a second plane disguised as the first on a high speed low pass of the pentagon, barely missing it and then fired a missile at the building and confiscated all the security tapes to keep their clever and elaborate ruse under wraps.


All this because the attacks on the WTC site wouldn't be enough to convince the public to go to war... and it's best to do things in the most convoluted way possible in the name of secrecy.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by mikey_the_redneck

There are many building around the Pentagon that had tapes confiscated, and only one was released.

I have seen tons of eye witness testimony that say they saw a plane right before impact as well but didn't actually see it make impact.

A Pentagon employee actually saw a low flying plane cruise by the back side of the Pentagon, that is the opposite side of impact.

a lack of evidence is not evidence,

And while I've got pictures of the plane impacting the pentagon, I don't have evidence of a smaller plane hitting the pentagon, yet I have a debris field at the pentagon matching the missing plane.

I have a friend that swears that he's lived 7 past lives, that dosen't make him a good witness to the events of past famous people.

The truther movement is based on flawed testimony, and even more flawed science and speculation where they jam theories in to make their facts stick.

The whole pulling argument in the infowars site has been discussed time and time again even in previous threads and truthers continue to deny that the pull statement is specifically about pulling firefighters and other personal to places of safety because the risk to them trying to save the building is to high.

[mikey_the_redneck]

Originally Posted by jar_e

I can guarantee there's as many eye witness reports that report seeing a plane that those who did not. With such a traumatic experience, perception if a powerful thing, and either side can be mistakened.

But what's the point of even using that as a part of your debate? Its pretty obvious both sides have "eye witnesses" who support their own cause.

Furthermore, and to a larger sense, what's even the point of debating this issue? No offense Mikey, but I can't see you convincing anyone to be a "truther"....and I'm pretty positive no one is going to be able to convince you of believing the non-conspiracy side. It just seems kinda redundant and pointless.

Watch the Pentagon film I posted. All the witnesses had the same observations....

I used to think Osama Bin Laden ran the whole operation from a lap top in a cave and attacked the most secure building in the world .........but I have since flipped.

[Flacker]

Originally Posted by mikey_the_redneck

Yeah I have seen that. Like I said, there was very little debris.

Burried in the crater? You mean the plane became one with the soil?Ha.......you should look at aerial site photos, there is barely anything left.

Do you expect to see through the dirt in an aerial photo? Here is another photo of them extracting the remains of an engine from the crater. Notice how it was below the surface? If you can't grab this basic premise I fear for your future.

[jar_e]

Originally Posted by mikey_the_redneck

Watch the Pentagon film I posted. All the witnesses had the same observations....

I used to think Osama Bin Laden ran the whole operation from a lap top in a cave and attacked the most secure building in the world .........but I have since flipped.

*sigh* I'm not going to debate this with you cause I truly don't see the point...but the thing with any film is editing. They found a bunch of witnesses to support their cause. There's numerous witnesses on major news networks saying they saw a plane crash into the pentagon. Its just picking and choosing to support a cause. And this seems to be a common thread among conspiracy theorists...to choose what's convenient for their cause.

[mikey_the_redneck]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

The truther movement is based on flawed testimony, and even more flawed science and speculation where they jam theories in to make their facts stick.

The whole pulling argument in the infowars site has been discussed time and time again even in previous threads and truthers continue to deny that the pull statement is specifically about pulling firefighters and other personal to places of safety because the risk to them trying to save the building is to high.

Wrong. The 9/11 Commission Report is based on flawed testimony.

If the Commission members don't support the findings, then why should you or I or the public accept it?

The "pull it" comment is not the "smoking gun" argument you claim it to be for the "truthers". But if you ask me, if I were referring to fire fighters, I would say we decided to "pull them" .......not "pull it"

[Flacker]

Originally Posted by mikey_the_redneck

Yeah I have seen that. Like I said, there was very little debris.

Burried in the crater? You mean the plane became one with the soil?Ha.......you should look at aerial site photos, there is barely anything left.

At 550+MPH how do you expect there to be much left? I think you are outright trolling, because no one can ignore the facts this blatently.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by mikey_the_redneck

Well why don't they release ALL the tapes then? If they don't show anything of interest, why not release them?

But you see Mikey thats your flaw.

A lack of evidence creates an area of speculation for Truthers.

Ok, there's one tape that shows the plane hitting the building, but thats not good enough for you, so you speculate on the contents of the other tapes.

Maybe the other tapes have nothing on them so its pointless to show them because the truthers will point to the tapes with nothing showing and say that the government either erased the tapes or dummied them.

Show me some real evidence in a coherant chain that proves to me that there's an intriguing reason to belive that the government had anything to do with 9/11 besides a flawed intelligence service and an inherant lack of sense to listen to that intelligence picture and I might be intrigued.

But at this time the theories involving thermite, superthermite, the use of grossly mis-interpreted data, selectively edited use of witness statements, and guesses by the truther movement are not enough to re-open an investigation.

and if Alex Jones and some of these other idiots are so on the ball, why hasn't the government initiated operation give them all air bubble injections in their sleep to wrap up loose ends.

[mikey_the_redneck]

Originally Posted by jar_e

*sigh* I'm not going to debate this with you cause I truly don't see the point...but the thing with any film is editing. They found a bunch of witnesses to support their cause. There's numerous witnesses on major news networks saying they saw a plane crash into the pentagon. Its just picking and choosing to support a cause. And this seems to be a common thread among conspiracy theorists...to choose what's convenient for their cause.

The witnesses include security guards and Pentagon employees. If you are not going to find out for yourself.....don't bother arguing.

Watch the Pentagon film I posted.