[PGT] Flames 0 - Wild 3

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

While I don't think I'm on the fire Sutter brigade, I think he is a very good coach that has unfortunately worn out his welcome. And this isn't the same team that has had 5 coaches in the last 8 years. This isn't Gaudreau/Tkachuk/Giordano's team anymore.

Did this organization not make an effort to bring in high-character, proven winners? When people say inmates would be running the asylum, are they referring to players like Coleman, Toffoli, and Kadri? I mean, Tanev to be honest looks like the most miserable player on the team, and I think everybody would call him an unbelievable teammate.

Something isn't right here. The team made an effort to bring in character guys and we are saying the fault is on the character of the team?

Sometimes a coach doesn't mesh.

We often look to blame the unquantifiable when the reality of the situation is too difficult to deal with.

We say luck, we say “something” is off, that this and that don’t mesh, that chemistry is difficult to build…

The painful part of this is that the Flames did what they’ve always done whenever they had salary cap available to them - they blew their wad on whatever was available.

Nazem Kadri is no wiser of a signing than Troy Brouwer, it’s just on a different scale. I’d actually argue it’s significantly worse because of the scale (term, money) and because we had to send a 1st round pick out to facilitate the deal.

Committing big term and dollars to a UFA goaltender in Jacob Markstrom who had a career season the year leading up to free agency. Just another example of looking externally to resolve an issue that they created through poor internal structure. The idea of locking in term and big dollars to a 30 year old goalie coming off a career season should have been a much bigger alarm in our minds than it was…but we’re fans that want to be excited for everything.

Blake Coleman is this organization prioritizing “proven winners” at a premium in free agency. There’s a reason why Tampa Bay didn’t keep him - it doesn’t make sense to pay players like Coleman what the Flames offered.

Chris Tanev has worked out better than anyone could imagine, but it was also a reactionary signing. The Flames prioritized Markstrom’s negotiation ahead of Brodie’s, and Brodie took a deal elsewhere resulting in the Flames having to pivot.

Jonathan Huberdeau and Mackenzie Weegar fell into their laps because Florida came to table with them, and reeling from the Summer of Rejection, the organization was on the defence and locked them in rather than being prudent.

The point I’m trying to get to is that no highly skilled successful team is built through free agency and massive contracts being handed out to players that weren’t homegrown. This Flames team is built in exactly that way. I still like Rhett’s criticism of the team that it has no plan and is built in the same way the pre-lockout Rangers/Leafs were built. The organizational approach to team building is why they are where they are, it’s a systemic issue from the top of the organization down to the bottom.

Time to change.

[TheIronMaiden]

Sutter hasn't been the best coach, but you can't make chciken salad out of chicken ####.

[dammage79]

How different would this all be if we skipped on Kadri, stuck with Monny and ran Dube at C when Monny eventually went on LTIR? With the cap space?

Plus I think Money could actually gel with Huberdeau.


As a Monny supporter I'm a bit biased but I also think the Flames kind of got in their own way here.

And they'd have an extra 1st to play with to either draft or make a trade at the deadline.

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by dammage79

How different would this all be if we skipped on Kadri, stuck with Monny and ran Dube at C when Monny eventually went on LTIR? With the cap space?

Plus I think Money could actually gel with Huberdeau.

We wouldn’t have $7M committed to Kadri and would have two 1st round picks in 2025.

We would be in a significantly better position.

[Joborule]

Originally Posted by FBI

Gaudreau’s last second decision to not sign sent this team into the darkest timeline.
- lose our best player
- lose our second best player (likely due to losing our best player)
- scramble and make trades and sign players that looked good on paper but instead will hamper the team for a decade
- team underperforms
- can’t make mind up at trade deadline so don’t do anything
- don’t even provide us some hope for futures and picks
- miss playoffs, draft 10-15
- riff between players and coach
- players quit

Wtf. This season sucks. Hope is low.

It really was a colossal blow to the franchise from that. It led to a domino of unfortunate results.

Team should be building off of their success last season, and be looking to make it to the conference finals. Instead they're in purgatory, and leaving a sense lack of direction.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by TheSquatch

Nurse contract is worse.

Originally Posted by Titan2

Is it? I hate Nurse with the burning passions of a million suns but for what he "contributes" to his team vs. what our guy contributes I would have to say we are getting the worse price per pound of output. And one of the contracts hasn't even started. Not good.

Yes.

Nurse is not a $9M player. Everyone knows this. We have his whole career, minus one decently good season, as proof.

Huberdeau has had a bad year, no question. But he has had many good years. Let's see if this year was an aberration or a new trend before we lump him in with the worst contracts.

[TheSquatch]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

We often look to blame the unquantifiable when the reality of the situation is too difficult to deal with.

We say luck, we say “something” is off, that this and that don’t mesh, that chemistry is difficult to build…

The painful part of this is that the Flames did what they’ve always done whenever they had salary cap available to them - they blew their wad on whatever was available.

Nazem Kadri is no wiser of a signing than Troy Brouwer, it’s just on a different scale. I’d actually argue it’s significantly worse because of the scale (term, money) and because we had to send a 1st round pick out to facilitate the deal.

Committing big term and dollars to a UFA goaltender in Jacob Markstrom who had a career season the year leading up to free agency. Just another example of looking externally to resolve an issue that they created through poor internal structure. The idea of locking in term and big dollars to a 30 year old goalie coming off a career season should have been a much bigger alarm in our minds than it was…but we’re fans that want to be excited for everything.

Blake Coleman is this organization prioritizing “proven winners” at a premium in free agency. There’s a reason why Tampa Bay didn’t keep him - it doesn’t make sense to pay players like Coleman what the Flames offered.

Chris Tanev has worked out better than anyone could imagine, but it was also a reactionary signing. The Flames prioritized Markstrom’s negotiation ahead of Brodie’s, and Brodie took a deal elsewhere resulting in the Flames having to pivot.

Jonathan Huberdeau and Mackenzie Weegar fell into their laps because Florida came to table with them, and reeling from the Summer of Rejection, the organization was on the defence and locked them in rather than being prudent.

The point I’m trying to get to is that no highly skilled successful team is built through free agency and massive contracts being handed out to players that weren’t homegrown. This Flames team built in exactly that way. I still like Rhett’s criticism of the team that it has no plan and is built in the same way the pre-lockout Rangers/Leafs were built. The organizational approach to team building is why they are where they are, it’s a systemic issue from the top of the organization down to the bottom.

Time to change.

Agree with all this. The mentality is "just a piece or two away, let's add" and it's.... wrong.

It's a competitive team, but not a "good" team this year, and looking ahead, it's hard to see what's going to make them better.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Ice time does matter for offensive players - you get more, you get more into the game (up to a point).

The 3rd and 4th liners are getting as much as they are used to (if not more) and they're doing fine. The guys struggling are the offensive guys: Huberdeau, Lindholm, Mangiapane, and Kadri

There are a lot of reasons for it, but I think ice-time deployment is definitely one of them.

I know there are probably a handful of contributing factors, but I think it only matters to a point.

Mangiapane’s ATOI is the highest it has been in his career. Lindholm is a minute off the pace of the last few years but is still on track for his third best season (and closer to his second best than his fourth). Kadri is playing the second-highest average minutes he’s played in his career and will probably come out with his third highest point total.

The question I keep coming back to is why Huberdeau, who is a supposed to be an elite level player, is impacted by (seemingly all of) these factors 10x more than the next guy.

[TheSquatch]

Originally Posted by dammage79

How different would this all be if we skipped on Kadri, stuck with Monny and ran Dube at C when Monny eventually went on LTIR? With the cap space?

Plus I think Money could actually gel with Huberdeau.


As a Monny supporter I'm a bit biased but I also think the Flames kind of got in their own way here.

And they'd have an extra 1st to play with to either draft or make a trade at the deadline.

Monny's out with injury. Again.

[Joborule]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

...

The point I’m trying to get to is that no highly skilled successful team is built through free agency and massive contracts being handed out to players that weren’t homegrown. This Flames team built in exactly that way. I still like Rhett’s criticism of the team that it has no plan and is built in the same way the pre-lockout Rangers/Leafs were built. The organizational approach to team building is why they are where they are, it’s a systemic issue from the top of the organization down to the bottom.

Time to change.

This organization lacks the inability to be forward thinking, and will only do it by accident when they have no viable choice since making playoffs isn't even a sure thing.

Hopefully were getting to that point that the organization realizes they can't build externally anymore, and have to focus on building from within. Don't even look at a UFA, or trading for older players at high price until the team is in sustained playoff contention position, and they're in position to supplement, while having good prospect depth.

[beaster]

Treliving is not a good GM. Who pays 10 million for a setup man after losing your only 2 finishers. He should have flipped him immediately for picks.

[dammage79]

Originally Posted by TheSquatch

Monny's out with injury. Again.

I know. But that's kind of the cost benefit. The cap flex to find maybe other cheaper options would be present instead of bargain bin shopping.

It's a futile exercise though of woulda coulda shoulda.


I miss Monny.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

I know there are probably a handful of contributing factors, but I think it only matters to a point.

Mangiapane’s ATOI is the highest it has been in his career. Lindholm is a minute off the pace of the last few years but is still on track for his third best season (and closer to his second best than his fourth). Kadri is playing the second-highest average minutes he’s played in his career and will probably come out with his third highest point total.

The question I keep coming back to is why Huberdeau, who is a supposed to be an elite level player, is impacted by (seemingly all of) these factors 10x more than the next guy.

Huberdeau has had a terrible season - everyone agrees. But I think there are a myriad of reasons for that - some on him, many external. Ice-time is one. Linemates are another. Changing teams is a challenge. Completely changing your style of play, at 29, is extremely difficult. Struggling with your new team, in Canada, when you're supposed to be 'the guy' must be an incredible burden.

My point is that there are lots of problems, and Huderdeau is getting more of the blame than he deserves. And for the blame that should fall to him, I think much of it is beyond his control. And I think one of those things is ice-time, and when someone brought it up, you dismissed it.

[Ashasx]

Originally Posted by TheSquatch

Monny's out with injury. Again.

So, still in a better position

[Yobbo]

Originally Posted by beaster

Treliving is not a good GM. Who pays 10 million for a setup man after losing your only 2 finishers. He should have flipped him immediately for picks.

Most everyone wanted to lock up Huberdeau long term once Johnny and Matthew left town. Not many could have predicted this signing turning out how it has. It's a season of whatever could go wrong, has gone wrong. Hindsight is always 20/20.

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by Joborule

This organization lacks the inability to be forward thinking, and will only do it by accident when they have no viable choice since making playoffs isn't even a sure thing.

Hopefully were getting to that point that the organization realizes they can't build externally anymore, and have to focus on building from within. Don't even look at a UFA, or trading for older players at high price until the team is in sustained playoff contention position, and they're in position to supplement, while having good prospect depth.

Step 1: Build a Championship quality foundation. That requires an elite #1 defenceman, elite #1 centre, top-end goalie.
Step 2: Draft and develop like one of the best teams in the league. This means prioritizing quantity of draft picks to help bolster the foundation.

The Flames may already have 1/3 of Step 1 completed thanks to Wolf, and they’re in the perfect position to execute the remainder of Step 1 and Step 2 given their 2024 UFA group.

This summer and next season should be a sell off. At no point should they be “trying to win” in 2023/2024. They shouldn’t even give themselves the opportunity. Lindholm, Hanifin, and Tanev should all be traded this off-season - and then they should not backfill with any big free agent signings. Retain salary to maximize returns where needed.

In-season you then look to move the remaining pending UFAs - Toffoli, Backlund, Zadorov - retaining salary where possible if you still have any retention spots left.

[Phil Russell]

Originally Posted by Joborule

That's what's your saying when you want the coach fired and have the roster be under a different coach. The players are not the problem, it's the coach. Bring in a different coach, and the players will play better. That's the idea no?

Surely it will work for the billionth time.

Nope. The players and the coach are the problem. They don't work together. And only one of these things can be changed. You are right that changing the coach might not work. But I think there is a better chance it will work, than coming back with this again next year.

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by Phil Russell

Nope. The players and the coach are the problem. They don't work together. And only one of these things can be changed. You are right that changing the coach might not work. But I think there is a better chance it will work, than coming back with this again next year.

The team is in a spot where the players can be changed.

2024 UFAs:
Elias Lindholm
Noah Hanifin
Chris Tanev
Tyler Toffoli
Mikael Backlund
Nikita Zadorov

2025 UFAs:
Andrew Mangiapane
Dan Vladar

2026 UFA:
Rasmus Andersson
Jacob Markstrom

Contracts beyond that? Blake Coleman (‘27 UFA), Nazem Kadri (‘29 UFA), Jonathan Huberdeau (‘31 UFA).

The time to change the players is 100% now.

Going into next season with any expectation of this team being a top team is only going to lead to disappoint. The organization needs to focus on more than just next season. If there’s to be any hope here, 2023/2024 should be a write off.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by FormerPresJamesTaylor

Personally I'm still on the fence about it, I'm not in the room so how could I possibly know anything. As a fan what can I do, and it's not like this is a discussion board to discuss things.

Pretty sure that's directed at me.

Still not personal right?

I've never squashed conversation, would make little sense to do so.

Honestly think some people when they're upset at their hockey team get even angrier if you won't join them. It's odd but you see it all the time.

[Barnet Flame]

Originally Posted by Joborule

That's what's your saying when you want the coach fired and have the roster be under a different coach. The players are not the problem, it's the coach. Bring in a different coach, and the players will play better. That's the idea no?

Surely it will work for the billionth time.

If we fired any good coaches, they’d surely be coming back to haunt us. But look at what they are doing in the NHL now.