[News] Flames re-assign Irving, recall Taylor

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by belsarius

In a short season that is already looking like a top 5 draft pick we might as well use this time to evaluate, not in a season where the playoffs are in sight.

I get that but Taylor and MacDonald have been evaluated by other franchises already. I could see if the Flames played tight defensive hockey that they could hope that these guys stop the shots they are supposed to. However throwing these guys behind the Flames sloppy defensive zone coverage is going to make them look just as bad as Kipper and Irving looked. I hope if Taylor gets the call he comes in a plays well but it's a bit much to expect that he's going to fare well facing point blank shots from NHL shooters all night like the Flames have been giving up almost all season.

[kehatch]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

What have you said here, in this post, that has anything to do with the topic of the thread?

C4L is 100% right. The "rebuild" crowd is just trying to turn this story to fit some sort of argument.

We get it. You guys want to rebuild.

Guess what? Irving sucks. He has sucked. He has sucked for the last 2 years. He has zero value. You may think the "Taylor might be good" argument is a bad one, but I think the "Irving has been awful" argument is pretty good.

You want the organization to look for a goalie? Well, they are. They are going to give Taylor the opportunity he has earned.

I don't understand the arguments in this thread. Contradiction after contradiction.

There is no contradiction. And it is a very relevant conversation in a thread where there plan B for goaltending is being put in the AHL.

I haven't said anywhere that Irving is a good goalie or a that he shouldn't have been demoted. The fact remains that the Flames plan B has been a goalie they had on the third string of their AHL club. That our goalies today would both easily cleat waivers and we're signed out of pure desperation. And given that his is neither a new or unpredictable issue that is just plain bad management by the Flames.

People here just keep making excuse after excuse for this organization. They signed Taylor so that is an acceptable way of looking for a goalie and addressing the situation? That is like buying a lottery ticket instead of finding a job then telling everyone its okay.

I am aware that the organization doesn't have a tonne of options. But that doesn't make it okay. They set the table. Their choices backed us into this corner. Stop making excuses for them.

[kehatch]

Bottom line for me:

1. If the Flames felt Irving was their best shot at being backup this season then they should have given him starts in the AHL.
2. If the Flames didn't feel he was their best option then he shouldn't have been given starts in the NHL.
3. The Flames failure to comply with the above two points shows a serious contradiction and is an example of their consistently poor development of goalies
4. The Flames knew they have a 36 year old goalie that has struggled in offensive systems. Failing to have a backup plan is unacceptable. Especially given how many years they have had to groom an effective backup.
5. No matter how you dice it, the revolving door at goalie, that caliber of our options, and the number of wasted contracts is not okay. People need to stop suggesting it is okay. Stop making excuses and stop acting like those of us not satisfied with the situation are not justified in being disappointed.
6. If ever there was a time that intellectual honesty was to be tested now is that time. If the organization doesn't recognize the severity of their situation now then they are hypocrits.

[Calgary4LIfe]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

The Irving detractors may love this long winded post (that becomes downright ridiculous at the end) but the fact is that Taylor is a known quantity at this stage of his career. I certainly never said he sucks and don't know who did but it's a big stretch to think that he's going to do an about face at this stage of his career. A Tim Thomas story comes around once every decade or two but it's a lot of hope and blind faith to think Taylor will follow that route.

Personally I'm just taking it game by game as IMO both Taylor and MacDonald are what they are and if we can get a good game out of either of them it's a bonus but to expect anything long term is foolish.

Irving detractors? Why would there be any? I know you feel that the Flames mismanaged Irving, but really what was there more to do with him. I have asked this a few times in other posts, and nobody has ever really answered:

How long do you wait for a prospect to shine before you give up on him? When you consider goalies need a lot of starts and development time, and the upcoming influx of potential netminders next season (Brossoit, Ortio and Ramo), where would Irving fit in? Continue giving him the bulk of starts (even though he consistently seems to not progress much) hoping he turns it around, or move onto what perhaps could be a better prospect and give him the time?

I am not an 'Irving Detractor'. I have said on many posts that I hope Irving succeeds. I just see a shaky goalie in net that is continually losing sight of pucks, giving up huge rebounds, and looking very nervous.

I also see that Taylor has been consistently better than Irving (and really, isn't that much older) who the Flames had to sign. If Irving isn't getting the job done, why would posters be so against at least seeing if Taylor would be better? Is Taylor done developing? I don't expect Taylor to come in and be 'lights out'. Heck, I don't even expect he will do well enough to get a 2nd NHL contract. I am CURIOUS as to how he does, and since Irving hasn't done much better, and now Taylor has an NHL contract, I am curious to see how he does. He may in fact do worse than Irving.

And as for 'rebuilding' - the 'ridiculousness' of the way my post ended - I do find it funny. Posters are clamoring for change and meritocracy. Irving hasn't been good - he is just a 1st round pick who hasn't progressed very much, even though he has been given ample opportunity to do so. That stuff happens sometimes. Even high picks fail. I just find it funny that some posters who are shouting for change, and wanting this team to get a top 5 pick, would be so against either:
1) A 'lesser' goalie coming in and doing worse than who they feel should get more starts, resulting in more losses. Give this team a bigger gap in losses, and there is a much stronger chance that the Flames end up rebuilding instead of 'going for it'.
2) Acknowledging that sometimes a pick doesn't work out. It happens. It sucks when it is a 1st round pick, but it does happen.

I am personally on the side of wanting a rebuild. I either wanted this team to roll and get into the playoffs, or be bad enough to pick top 5. I just don't see how either side of wanting that would have a problem with trying out Taylor for a few games, after Irving hasn't been good enough. I seriously doubt ANYONE on this forum is expecting Taylor to be good - everyone who follows the Heat just wants to see if Taylor can actually be decent, and feel he is at least deserving of a cup of coffee for his last couple of seasons.

[Superfraggle]

Originally Posted by Calgary4LIfe

Do you really buy that load of garbage that Irving said: "I find the NHL easier than the AHL." Show me one competent goalie who did better in the NHL than the AHL.

Tuuka Rask
NHL: 111 GP, 2.19 GAA, 0.926 SV%, 12 Shutouts
AHL: 102 GP, 2.43 GAA, 0.911 SV%, 5 Shutouts

Corey Crawford
NHL: 132 GP, 2.44 GAA, 0.912 SV%, 6 Shutouts
AHL: 255 GP, 2.78 GAA, 0.908 SV%, 8 Shutouts

J.S. Giguere
NHL: 560 GP, 2.52 GAA, 0.913 SV%, 36 Shutouts
AHL: 134 GP, 2.91 GAA, 0.910 SV%, 5 Shutouts

Jose Theodore
NHL: 644 GP, 2.68 GAA, 0.909 SV%, 33 Shutouts
AHL: 110 GP, 3.02 GAA, 0.912 SV%, 4 Shutouts

Jimmy Howard
NHL: 205 GP, 2.45 GAA, 0.916 SV%, 11 Shutouts
AHL: 186 GP, 2.67 GAA, 0.911 SV%, 14 Shutouts

Evgeni Nabokov
NHL: 617 GP, 2.41 GAA, 0.912 SV%, 52 Shutouts
AHL: 78 GP, 3.14 GAA, 0.894 SV%, 6 Shutouts

Devan Dubnyk
NHL: 114 GP, 2.84 GAA, 0.911 SV%, 4 Shutouts
AHL: 132 GP, 3.02 GAA, 0.907 SV%, 3 Shutouts

Pekka Rinne
NHL: 263 GP, 2.31 GAA, 0.922 SV%, 28 Shutouts
AHL: 145 GP, 2.56 GAA, 0.909 SV%, 10 Shutouts

Tomas Vokoun
NHL: 686 GP, 2.55 GAA, 0.917 SV%, 49 Shutouts
AHL: 78 GP, 3.34 GAA, 0.904 SV%, 2 Shutouts

[Stay Golden]

I want the Flames give Taylor a real chance. Give the kid some starts.
I want to see if he can transfer the outstanding stats he has accomplished in the AHL to the NHL.

[Stampede2TheCup]

Originally Posted by kehatch

Bottom line for me:

1. If the Flames felt Irving was their best shot at being backup this season then they should have given him starts in the AHL.
2. If the Flames didn't feel he was their best option then he shouldn't have been given starts in the NHL.
3. The Flames failure to comply with the above two points shows a serious contradiction and is an example of their consistently poor development of goalies.
4. The Flames knew they have a 36 year old goalie that has struggled in offensive systems. Failing to have a backup plan is unacceptable. Especially given how many years they have had to groom an effective backup.
5. No matter how you dice it, the revolving door at goalie, that caliber of our options, and the number of wasted contracts is not okay. People need to stop suggesting it is okay. Stop making excuses and stop acting like those of us not satisfied with the situation are not justified in being disappointed.
6. If ever there was a time that intellectual honesty was to be tested now is that time. If the organization doesn't recognize the severity of their situation now then they are hypocrits.

Originally Posted by kehatch

There is no contradiction. And it is a very relevant conversation in a thread where there plan B for goaltending is being put in the AHL.

I haven't said anywhere that Irving is a good goalie or a that he shouldn't have been demoted. The fact remains that the Flames plan B has been a goalie they had on the third string of their AHL club. That our goalies today would both easily cleat waivers and we're signed out of pure desperation. And given that his is neither a new or unpredictable issue that is just plain bad management by the Flames.

People here just keep making excuse after excuse for this organization. They signed Taylor so that is an acceptable way of looking for a goalie and addressing the situation? That is like buying a lottery ticket instead of finding a job then telling everyone its okay.

I am aware that the organization doesn't have a tonne of options. But that doesn't make it okay. They set the table. Their choices backed us into this corner. Stop making excuses for them.

Whether the handling of the situation is acceptable or not is your personal opinion. You are angry at others trying to push their side while simultaneously trying to shove yours down everyone elses' throat as if it's a fact. We get that you feel strongly about your opinions on this matter, but they're still debatable.

To claim the team didn't have a backup plan is pretty ridiculous, as every team surely does for their goalies. Obviously you don't like their plan but a lot of teams struggle when a starter goes down. You either spend money on a proven backup and don't leave space for a younger prospect, or you have to gamble a bit on what the younger prospect can do. Obviously things haven't worked out ideally, but that doesn't mean there was a lack of a plan or even a horrible plan. Also, unless you have inside information on everything going on behind the scenes you don't know what plan A or B is/was.

I don't know if I speak for everyone who disagrees with you, but I don't think people are making excuses for the organization. It's just a combination of differing opinions on the factors of the situation:

A) Costs and roster management involved in bringing a new goalie in.
B) Long-term and short term plans need to be considered including keeping room for upcoming prospects to feel they have a chance.
C) The level of risk involved in riding Kiprusoff.

I think most people that disagree with you view the risk of riding Kipper this year as smaller than you, recognize the worst-case scenario doesn't always happen, and have different value judgement on how to juggle resources and fit together long and short-term plans.

[FlameZilla]

I really feel for Irving. It seems to me that his treatment by the management of the Flames has really messed with his head. Not that this is an excuse for poor performances, because if he was the 'Real Deal' he'd overcome these mental distractions. I just can't imagine the guy's confidence being any lower than it must be right now, and we all know goalies need rock-solid confidence to play anywhere near their best. From the games I've watched he's looked a more-than-capable young back-up goalie with solid potential to be a starter. Shame he's been dropped after his first shaky performance. I can't see him recovering from this knock to his confidence – at least not in a Flames jersey.

[Yoho]

Originally Posted by FlameZilla

I really feel for Irving. It seems to me that his treatment by the management of the Flames has really messed with his head. Not that this is an excuse for poor performances, because if he was the 'Real Deal' he'd overcome these mental distractions. I just can't imagine the guy's confidence being any lower than it must be right now, and we all know goalies need rock-solid confidence to play anywhere near their best. From the games I've watched he's looked a more-than-capable young back-up goalie with solid potential to be a starter. Shame he's been dropped after his first shaky performance. I can't see him recovering from this knock to his confidence – at least not in a Flames jersey.

Welcome to the NHL, and professional sports. It looks so glamorous when you see how star players like Crosby live, but for back up goalies and 4th line players every day is about survival . I feel for him as well but it is just the nature of the beast.