[News] Flames re-assign Irving, recall Taylor

[timbit]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

I hoped Irving would show he could be part of the solution but it appears like most of Darryl's 1st round picks he will be shown the door under the new regime. He's going to go back to Abbotsford where Ward will promptly bury him for the rest of his tenure with the organization. I hope the kid lands on his feet and puts this organization behind him.

Feaster has hitched his wagon to Ramo and it's debatable if Irving was ever in the plans for next season anyway.

Ironically, Ramo was a first round pick by Feaster with TB.

[Vulcan]

Irving seems to have the skills but doesn't have any confidence and on the other side Flames management hasn't shown any confidence in him either, even in Abbotsford. A horrible way to treat a young talented prospect goalie.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by saillias

Is Detroit a gongshow for not having a protege to replace Lidstrom, how about NJ with Brodeur?

They are both in playoff positions and while neither would be favorites to win the cup neither would be considered lucky to get in, therefore riding what they have as it is working, even if it doesn't entirely make sense for the future, is understandable.

The Flames are a team that would, on paper, be unlikley to make the playoffs and so should be planning for the future above all else.

[$ven27]

Originally Posted by timbit

Ironically, Ramo was a first round pick by Feaster with TB.

He was taken in the 6th round, 191 overall.

[Calgary4LIfe]

Not to sure why people feel that Irving 'got the shaft' here.

Flames drafted Irving in the first round. He was a legit prospect. Flames gave him a lots and lots of starts in Abby. They gave him a goalie coach. There is also a sports psychologist at his disposal. Under 2 different head coaches, and up against 4 career AHL goalies during his tenure, the only thing he has been consistent with is losing his starter position. Flames gave Irving loads of opportunity to shine - including this time in the NHL which he did NOT earn.

Why is everyone so quick to say Taylor sucks? Or that he is not an NHL calibre goalie? He has not only been a consistently good goalie in the AHL, but he has been consistently BETTER than Irving.

Will Taylor come up and be the saviour? Well, I personally don't think so, but he COULD be just a steady goalie - just make the saves he is supposed to make, and give the team some confidence back there. Who knows how good he will do?

Remember when the Flames went through that HORRIBLE year with so many goalies? They went through one after another. What was it? 7? Finally, out of nowhere, comes Brathwaite. ANYONE who said they saw Freddie finally being a competent goalie was a complete liar - or a fool. But he came in, and he was steady. Not spectacular, but steady.

I just shake my head at why this fanbase feels Taylor is 'junk' before he even has played a game. Everyone who follows the Heat regularly knows that Taylor has been better - and CONSISTENT!

Do you really buy that load of garbage that Irving said: "I find the NHL easier than the AHL." Show me one competent goalie who did better in the NHL than the AHL.

Taylor may indeed 'suck' when he comes up. But NOBODY - including myself - will really know that until he gets a couple of games in. MacDonald came in as a backup - his first game in Calgary at home - and looked less 'shaky' than Irving, but didn't quite hold the fort either. Give him a couple more games and see what he does before judging him as incompetent.

Why so many posters are so determined to continue starting Irving is surprising. He was not 'mismanaged'. He just didn't develop into a good goalie. That is why the Flames drafted Brossoit, Ortio, Gilles and made the trade last year for Ramo. All their eggs weren't in one basket. So the Flames are in a 'mess' because of it? They are a joke of a franchise because their is no 'plan' for Kipper's future replacement? Looks like to me, the Flames have a fairly strong prospect pool of goalies. Will they all work out? No - just like Irving didn't work out.

What I find the most laughable in this thread is how the same posters that wish the Flames 'tank' and do an aggressive rebuild are also some of the same ones crapping all over the Flames for seeing what they have in Taylor (and assuming Taylor is going to suck). Aren't you guys being a bit hypocritical with what you want? You want a top 5 pick? Well, having a crappy goalie gets you there faster. Pick a side already, and stick to it instead of flip-flopping.

[kehatch]

Originally Posted by Calgary4LIfe

Not to sure why people feel that Irving 'got the shaft' here.

Flames drafted Irving in the first round. He was a legit prospect. Flames gave him a lots and lots of starts in Abby. They gave him a goalie coach. There is also a sports psychologist at his disposal. Under 2 different head coaches, and up against 4 career AHL goalies during his tenure, the only thing he has been consistent with is losing his starter position. Flames gave Irving loads of opportunity to shine - including this time in the NHL which he did NOT earn.

Why is everyone so quick to say Taylor sucks? Or that he is not an NHL calibre goalie? He has not only been a consistently good goalie in the AHL, but he has been consistently BETTER than Irving.

Will Taylor come up and be the saviour? Well, I personally don't think so, but he COULD be just a steady goalie - just make the saves he is supposed to make, and give the team some confidence back there. Who knows how good he will do?

Remember when the Flames went through that HORRIBLE year with so many goalies? They went through one after another. What was it? 7? Finally, out of nowhere, comes Brathwaite. ANYONE who said they saw Freddie finally being a competent goalie was a complete liar - or a fool. But he came in, and he was steady. Not spectacular, but steady.

I just shake my head at why this fanbase feels Taylor is 'junk' before he even has played a game. Everyone who follows the Heat regularly knows that Taylor has been better - and CONSISTENT!

Do you really buy that load of garbage that Irving said: "I find the NHL easier than the AHL." Show me one competent goalie who did better in the NHL than the AHL.

Taylor may indeed 'suck' when he comes up. But NOBODY - including myself - will really know that until he gets a couple of games in. MacDonald came in as a backup - his first game in Calgary at home - and looked less 'shaky' than Irving, but didn't quite hold the fort either. Give him a couple more games and see what he does before judging him as incompetent.

Why so many posters are so determined to continue starting Irving is surprising. He was not 'mismanaged'. He just didn't develop into a good goalie. That is why the Flames drafted Brossoit, Ortio, Gilles and made the trade last year for Ramo. All their eggs weren't in one basket. So the Flames are in a 'mess' because of it? They are a joke of a franchise because their is no 'plan' for Kipper's future replacement? Looks like to me, the Flames have a fairly strong prospect pool of goalies. Will they all work out? No - just like Irving didn't work out.

What I find the most laughable in this thread is how the same posters that wish the Flames 'tank' and do an aggressive rebuild are also some of the same ones crapping all over the Flames for seeing what they have in Taylor (and assuming Taylor is going to suck). Aren't you guys being a bit hypocritical with what you want? You want a top 5 pick? Well, having a crappy goalie gets you there faster. Pick a side already, and stick to it instead of flip-flopping.

The day that the Flames start winning and prove people like me wrong is the day people like you get to climb on your high horse. At the moment you look pretty awkward and your steed is a donkey.

This isn't about Irving. Or Taylor. It is about the fact that the team is near last place, had a top line that includes Blake Comeau, and has MacDonald + Taylor as the goalies.

The present state was likely and predictable and many of us have been saying this for some time. Our best chance is to trade Kipper and Iginla for a smitten of what we could have got a couple of seasons ago. Worst case is we keep doing this until the bottom completely falls out and we lose them for nothing.

I am afraid your 'But Taylor could be good' argument comes off a bit weak in a series of maybes and could bes that predictably got us to present state.

It is time to call a dog a dog. And the Flames are a dog. With fleas. Big ones. But some of you will continue to see something grander no matter how hard the facts hit you in the face.

[Ashasx]

Originally Posted by kehatch

The day that the Flames start winning and prove people like me wrong is the day people like you get to climb on your high horse. At the moment you look pretty awkward and your steed is a donkey.

This isn't about Irving. Or Taylor. It is about the fact that the team is near last place, had a top line that includes Blake Comeau, and has MacDonald + Taylor as the goalies.

The present state was likely and predictable and many of us have been saying this for some time. Our best chance is to trade Kipper and Iginla for a smitten of what we could have got a couple of seasons ago. Worst case is we keep doing this until the bottom completely falls out and we lose them for nothing.

I am afraid your 'But Taylor could be good' argument comes off a bit weak in a series of maybes and could bes that predictably got us to present state.

It is time to call a dog a dog. And the Flames are a dog. With fleas. Big ones. But some of you will continue to see something grander no matter how hard the facts hit you in the face.

What have you said here, in this post, that has anything to do with the topic of the thread?

C4L is 100% right. The "rebuild" crowd is just trying to turn this story to fit some sort of argument.

We get it. You guys want to rebuild.

Guess what? Irving sucks. He has sucked. He has sucked for the last 2 years. He has zero value. You may think the "Taylor might be good" argument is a bad one, but I think the "Irving has been awful" argument is pretty good.

You want the organization to look for a goalie? Well, they are. They are going to give Taylor the opportunity he has earned.

I don't understand the arguments in this thread. Contradiction after contradiction.

[Psytic]

Originally Posted by kehatch

The day that the Flames start winning and prove people like me wrong is the day people like you get to climb on your high horse. At the moment you look pretty awkward and your steed is a donkey.

This isn't about Irving. Or Taylor. It is about the fact that the team is near last place, had a top line that includes Blake Comeau, and has MacDonald + Taylor as the goalies.

The present state was likely and predictable and many of us have been saying this for some time. Our best chance is to trade Kipper and Iginla for a smitten of what we could have got a couple of seasons ago. Worst case is we keep doing this until the bottom completely falls out and we lose them for nothing.

I am afraid your 'But Taylor could be good' argument comes off a bit weak in a series of maybes and could bes that predictably got us to present state.

It is time to call a dog a dog. And the Flames are a dog. With fleas. Big ones. But some of you will continue to see something grander no matter how hard the facts hit you in the face.

Not really much else they can do. They picked up Ramo and have stocked the cupboard with loads of goalie prospects compared to when Sutter was here. I don't think they have fallen ass backwards into a Kipper succession plan . They have been grooming Irving for years. Its not their fault that he can't hack it. He certainly has been given years to develop, this is on him.

Having Comeau in the top six is a disgrace but we aren't the only team that has tried former 20 goal scorers in a top six role. There is projects on every team every year and sometimes they work out like Fasth and sometimes they flop.

[Calgary4LIfe]

Originally Posted by kehatch

The day that the Flames start winning and prove people like me wrong is the day people like you get to climb on your high horse. At the moment you look pretty awkward and your steed is a donkey.

This isn't about Irving. Or Taylor. It is about the fact that the team is near last place, had a top line that includes Blake Comeau, and has MacDonald + Taylor as the goalies.

The present state was likely and predictable and many of us have been saying this for some time. Our best chance is to trade Kipper and Iginla for a smitten of what we could have got a couple of seasons ago. Worst case is we keep doing this until the bottom completely falls out and we lose them for nothing.

I am afraid your 'But Taylor could be good' argument comes off a bit weak in a series of maybes and could bes that predictably got us to present state.

It is time to call a dog a dog. And the Flames are a dog. With fleas. Big ones. But some of you will continue to see something grander no matter how hard the facts hit you in the face.

Wow, seriously? High horse?

Tell me then, what is the correct course of action you want on the Flames in dealing with this situation. The way I see it was that Irving has been a legitimate prospect. He hasn't developed even though he has had lots of opportunity and support.

One day, he may very well be a decent goalie, but it isn't going to be this season.

Tell me, what SHOULD the Flames do. I am getting off my 'high horse' (or as you put it, my donkey) and asking you what you really think should have happened here.

As Ashasx has stated - very little of your rebuttal has anything to do with this thread. What exactly did you want the Flames to do now with their goalie situation?

[moon]

Originally Posted by Calgary4LIfe

Why is everyone so quick to say Taylor sucks? Or that he is not an NHL calibre goalie? He has not only been a consistently good goalie in the AHL, but he has been consistently BETTER than Irving.

Mainly because every team in the NHL, including the Flames have determined that this guy wasn't good enough. Even now the Flames only signed him because of injury needs. If they thought he had NHL potential they could have easily signed him prior to the season when they only had two goalies under contract.

Sure he could turn out to be a miracle guy but that is very unlikely. He is a 26 year old guy with a long track record and that record shows that he is very unlikely to be anything more than an AHL goalie.

What I find the most laughable in this thread is how the same posters that wish the Flames 'tank' and do an aggressive rebuild are also some of the same ones crapping all over the Flames for seeing what they have in Taylor (and assuming Taylor is going to suck). Aren't you guys being a bit hypocritical with what you want? You want a top 5 pick? Well, having a crappy goalie gets you there faster. Pick a side already, and stick to it instead of flip-flopping.

Because the team is not willing to go this route so hoping for losses actually could end up in the worse scenario where the team loses but also doesn't take advantage of moving assets at the deadline.

If the team were willing to go with the rebuild then I would be all for it but I am not that keen on watching the team lose while Feaster holds on to his fantasy of making it to 8th spot and going on a run.

I also don't want the Flames to "tank" I want them to have younger assets that are improving and building for the future so playing 26 year old Taylor that is what he is would be worse in my view than playing the younger, better Irving that has a much better chance of turning into something for us in the future.

[Young One]

Originally Posted by moon

Mainly because every team in the NHL, including the Flames have determined that this guy wasn't good enough. Even now the Flames only signed him because of injury needs. If they thought he had NHL potential they could have easily signed him prior to the season when they only had two goalies under contract.

Sure he could turn out to be a miracle guy but that is very unlikely. He is a 26 year old guy with a long track record and that record shows that he is very unlikely to be anything more than an AHL goalie.



Because the team is not willing to go this route so hoping for losses actually could end up in the worse scenario where the team loses but also doesn't take advantage of moving assets at the deadline.


If the team were willing to go with the rebuild then I would be all for it but I am not that keen on watching the team lose while Feaster holds on to his fantasy of making it to 8th spot and going on a run.

I also don't want the Flames to "tank" I want them to have younger assets that are improving and building for the future so playing 26 year old Taylor that is what he is would be worse in my view than playing the younger, better Irving that has a much better chance of turning into something for us in the future.

Whats up with all this "26 year old Taylor" stuff? Lots of goalies start in the NHL at that age, you guys are acting like he's 39 or something.

[kyuss275]

Originally Posted by Calgary4LIfe

Not to sure why people feel that Irving 'got the shaft' here.

Flames drafted Irving in the first round. He was a legit prospect. Flames gave him a lots and lots of starts in Abby. They gave him a goalie coach. There is also a sports psychologist at his disposal. Under 2 different head coaches, and up against 4 career AHL goalies during his tenure, the only thing he has been consistent with is losing his starter position. Flames gave Irving loads of opportunity to shine - including this time in the NHL which he did NOT earn.

Why is everyone so quick to say Taylor sucks? Or that he is not an NHL calibre goalie? He has not only been a consistently good goalie in the AHL, but he has been consistently BETTER than Irving.

Will Taylor come up and be the saviour? Well, I personally don't think so, but he COULD be just a steady goalie - just make the saves he is supposed to make, and give the team some confidence back there. Who knows how good he will do?

Remember when the Flames went through that HORRIBLE year with so many goalies? They went through one after another. What was it? 7? Finally, out of nowhere, comes Brathwaite. ANYONE who said they saw Freddie finally being a competent goalie was a complete liar - or a fool. But he came in, and he was steady. Not spectacular, but steady.

I just shake my head at why this fanbase feels Taylor is 'junk' before he even has played a game. Everyone who follows the Heat regularly knows that Taylor has been better - and CONSISTENT!

Do you really buy that load of garbage that Irving said: "I find the NHL easier than the AHL." Show me one competent goalie who did better in the NHL than the AHL.

Taylor may indeed 'suck' when he comes up. But NOBODY - including myself - will really know that until he gets a couple of games in. MacDonald came in as a backup - his first game in Calgary at home - and looked less 'shaky' than Irving, but didn't quite hold the fort either. Give him a couple more games and see what he does before judging him as incompetent.

Why so many posters are so determined to continue starting Irving is surprising. He was not 'mismanaged'. He just didn't develop into a good goalie. That is why the Flames drafted Brossoit, Ortio, Gilles and made the trade last year for Ramo. All their eggs weren't in one basket. So the Flames are in a 'mess' because of it? They are a joke of a franchise because their is no 'plan' for Kipper's future replacement? Looks like to me, the Flames have a fairly strong prospect pool of goalies. Will they all work out? No - just like Irving didn't work out.

What I find the most laughable in this thread is how the same posters that wish the Flames 'tank' and do an aggressive rebuild are also some of the same ones crapping all over the Flames for seeing what they have in Taylor (and assuming Taylor is going to suck). Aren't you guys being a bit hypocritical with what you want? You want a top 5 pick? Well, having a crappy goalie gets you there faster. Pick a side already, and stick to it instead of flip-flopping.

Well I could just flip this around and say to the posters that are in the non-rebuild stance say that, Why is everyone so quick to say that Comeau centering Iggy is going to suck?

Taylor has been an AHL goalie for a reason. No team has wanted him up to this point. He could be great but it's about as much chance as Comeau being great at center.

As for "aggressive rebuild" i don't think they mean get rid of every member of the flames team. Irving is a young goalie that might take a couple of more years to develop. Nothing wrong if the rebuild group wants to wait it out a bit longer.

For the posters that don't think this team is a bit of a mess, i don't knnow what to say. We now have 2 natural LW's playing center in the top 6.

The one constant from Sutter's team and this one is the forwards group are still bad in their own zone. When Hudler was signed all i heard from Detroit fans was how bad he was defensivly. Hudler has been one of the better forwards in his own zone. Not great but better than the average. Kind of tells you how bad some of our past players are at D coverage.

[moon]

Originally Posted by Young One

Whats up with all this "26 year old Taylor" stuff? Lots of goalies start in the NHL at that age, you guys are acting like he's 39 or something.

Most goalies that start that late have shown a lot more than Taylor has and for all the Thomas', Kippers' and Rolosons' there are a ton more guys that had similar backgrounds and did nothing with it.

You don't think it is a little bit telling that he could have been signed by any team in the NHL and wasn't until the Flames had an emergency situation and even then they waived him back down to the AHL asap? That seems to indicate that it isn't just some here acting like that but NHL scouts and GM's as well.

[PeteLFan]

Irving needs time and more development. You have to be patient with goalies. He's only 24.

Kipper was sitting in the press box as the odd man out when he was 27. He was blinding up and down the NHL and AHL spotting a spectacular 3.25 GAA.

Irving has had a bad stretch. Our entire goaltending tandem has been bad all year long. We can't just cut Irving we need to give him every chance he can get.

[belsarius]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

Pretty embarrassing that this organization hasn't developed one single capable NHL goalie during Kippers reign here. Irving was supposed to be that guy I guess, but he scares the heck out of me between the pipes right now. So here we are, on the potential eve of life after kipper, with nobody ready to take the reigns, and nobody ready to even properly fill in for kipper while he's hurt.

Sure hope Ramo comes over and works out, or this might be a disaster in the making.

The Flames haven't developed one single capable NHL goalie since Trevor Kidd. Sure we had Giguire but I would argue his actual development into a great goalie didn't start until he left.

This isn't a new problem for the Flames, what is going on now is a whole lot less of a gong show than the Freddy B, Ken Wregget, Giguire, Moss, Trefilov, Garner show of 1999.

[edslunch]

Y. D

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Calgary4LIfe

Not to sure why people feel that Irving 'got the shaft' here.

Flames drafted Irving in the first round. He was a legit prospect. Flames gave him a lots and lots of starts in Abby. They gave him a goalie coach. There is also a sports psychologist at his disposal. Under 2 different head coaches, and up against 4 career AHL goalies during his tenure, the only thing he has been consistent with is losing his starter position. Flames gave Irving loads of opportunity to shine - including this time in the NHL which he did NOT earn.

Why is everyone so quick to say Taylor sucks? Or that he is not an NHL calibre goalie? He has not only been a consistently good goalie in the AHL, but he has been consistently BETTER than Irving.

Will Taylor come up and be the saviour? Well, I personally don't think so, but he COULD be just a steady goalie - just make the saves he is supposed to make, and give the team some confidence back there. Who knows how good he will do?

Remember when the Flames went through that HORRIBLE year with so many goalies? They went through one after another. What was it? 7? Finally, out of nowhere, comes Brathwaite. ANYONE who said they saw Freddie finally being a competent goalie was a complete liar - or a fool. But he came in, and he was steady. Not spectacular, but steady.

I just shake my head at why this fanbase feels Taylor is 'junk' before he even has played a game. Everyone who follows the Heat regularly knows that Taylor has been better - and CONSISTENT!

Do you really buy that load of garbage that Irving said: "I find the NHL easier than the AHL." Show me one competent goalie who did better in the NHL than the AHL.

Taylor may indeed 'suck' when he comes up. But NOBODY - including myself - will really know that until he gets a couple of games in. MacDonald came in as a backup - his first game in Calgary at home - and looked less 'shaky' than Irving, but didn't quite hold the fort either. Give him a couple more games and see what he does before judging him as incompetent.

Why so many posters are so determined to continue starting Irving is surprising. He was not 'mismanaged'. He just didn't develop into a good goalie. That is why the Flames drafted Brossoit, Ortio, Gilles and made the trade last year for Ramo. All their eggs weren't in one basket. So the Flames are in a 'mess' because of it? They are a joke of a franchise because their is no 'plan' for Kipper's future replacement? Looks like to me, the Flames have a fairly strong prospect pool of goalies. Will they all work out? No - just like Irving didn't work out.

What I find the most laughable in this thread is how the same posters that wish the Flames 'tank' and do an aggressive rebuild are also some of the same ones crapping all over the Flames for seeing what they have in Taylor (and assuming Taylor is going to suck). Aren't you guys being a bit hypocritical with what you want? You want a top 5 pick? Well, having a crappy goalie gets you there faster. Pick a side already, and stick to it instead of flip-flopping.

The Irving detractors may love this long winded post (that becomes downright ridiculous at the end) but the fact is that Taylor is a known quantity at this stage of his career. I certainly never said he sucks and don't know who did but it's a big stretch to think that he's going to do an about face at this stage of his career. A Tim Thomas story comes around once every decade or two but it's a lot of hope and blind faith to think Taylor will follow that route.

Personally I'm just taking it game by game as IMO both Taylor and MacDonald are what they are and if we can get a good game out of either of them it's a bonus but to expect anything long term is foolish.

[edslunch]

Not sure what that was.....

Lots of assumptions being made. Why is Irving being sent down? Clearly the Flames aren't confident with him as the starter. But are they done with him? Want to work on his confidence or correct a flaw in A lower pressure environment? Plan to bring him back soon? We don't know.

[edslunch]

If the Flames really think Taylor is better option than Irving at this point the they are truly desperate and I'm sure would privately admit that.

[belsarius]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

The Irving detractors may love this long winded post (that becomes downright ridiculous at the end) but the fact is that Taylor is a known quantity at this stage of his career. I certainly never said he sucks and don't know who did but it's a big stretch to think that he's going to do an about face at this stage of his career. A Tim Thomas story comes around once every decade or two but it's a lot of hope and blind faith to think Taylor will follow that route.

Personally I'm just taking it game by game as IMO both Taylor and MacDonald are what they are and if we can get a good game out of either of them it's a bonus but to expect anything long term is foolish.

I don't think that anyone is thinking Taylor will follow that route, more hoping he will. I think Kipper is a more apt comparrison to Thomas, as Tim didn't show up in the NHL full time until he was over 30.

I think the main point here is that the Flames do have goaltender prospects all over the place right now playing well at their respective levels and should be given the shot to see what they can do on the big stage. I guess you can call this a throw everything at the wall and see what sticks, but Irving has his 5 games, and looked shakey. Based on Meritocracy Taylor has played well enough to get 5 and see what he can do. McDonald is as solid a backup as noodles was and is here to provide some experience. Worse that happens is Taylor plays bad and gets sent back down but until you give him the chance you will never know if his great play in the AHL can translate.

In a short season that is already looking like a top 5 draft pick we might as well use this time to evaluate, not in a season where the playoffs are in sight.