Edmonton teacher suspended for giving zero's

[FlamesFanStrandedInEDM]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

So, to use you example, if I was a 90% student, but missed an assignment I would get an MEV and could not pass?

"The No Zero Policy" sees everybody the same. Smart students are responsible to complete 100% of their work, as are the dumb ones.

"The No Zero Policy" usually coincides with "No Deadlines" so that student does have all semester to hand in his or her work. So its not like "I had the plague in october, therefor i'm not responsible for the work covered that month"

[FlamesFanStrandedInEDM]

Originally Posted by polak

I've had a few courses in post-secondary where thats the case.

It makes sense. You can't leave part of the course unfinished. You can still make a terrible last minute attempt but you have to atleast hand something in.

Can I assume that you were against the "Media's definition of No Zeros"?

[SilverGS]

Originally Posted by FlamesFanStrandedInEDM

The other part i haven't even touched on is Formative Assessment vs Summative Assessment. My understanding of the "No Zero Policy" is that it only really applies for Summative Assessments.
Formative Assessment are activities that do not count for grades. They are assignments that have been made to help the teacher determine if the class or student is ready for a summative assessment.

The Summative Assessments are those big assignments that are being missed that count for grades. Attendance is not one of thse assessments. Believe it or not, the only curriculum that I have experienced that actually has a "Attendance requirement"

The ideal "No Zero Policy" would have a student not receive credit for the course until all Summative Assessments have been completed. And therefor it could be 1 MEV that has them taking the class again.

Ah ok so based on this the No Zero Policy is even tougher on students and makes them more accountable.

They used to be able to except a 0 that may reduce their mark but still could get the pass. Now if you have even one MEV you may have to redo the entire class. So they at minimum have to hand in something or actually write the test, even if it means doing badly, to pass the course.

If this is indeed the case then it would mimic real world a bit better. I can't go to my boss and say I'm only going to do 8/10 of the work items you assigned to me but since I did those 8 really well then I'll take the 0 on the other 2 and I am still good lol. I miss 1 and they could terminate me for not doing my job. This is similar. Do all your required summative requirements or risk not passing.

Correct?

[polak]

Originally Posted by FlamesFanStrandedInEDM

Can I assume that you were against the "Media's definition of No Zeros"?

Yup. I should have read more before I opened my big mouth

[FlamesFanStrandedInEDM]

Originally Posted by SilverGS

Ah ok so based on this the No Zero Policy is even tougher on students and makes them more accountable.

They used to be able to except a 0 that may reduce their mark but still could get the pass. Now if you have even one MEV you may have to redo the entire class. So they at minimum have to hand in something or actually write the test, even if it means doing badly, to pass the course.

If this is indeed the case then it would mimic real world a bit better. I can't go to my boss and say I'm only going to do 8/10 of the work items you assigned to me but since I did those 8 really well then I'll take the 0 on the other 2 and I am still good lol. I miss 1 and they could terminate me for not doing my job. This is similar. Do all your required summative requirements or risk not passing.

Correct?

Correct!

Zeros give credit for work not done because unfinished work is averaged into the work that is completed. The fondation of the "No Zero Policy" is on accurate assessment. Simply Zeros dont accurately assess a student. Therefor they must finish everything to pass, and makes them more accountable.

Had that Edmonton teacher had the students hand in at least a sheet of paper with a half-assed attempt with their name on it, he may not be in this mess. He could of shown the principal and superintendant "Look, this is what they handed in"

[Traditional_Ale]

I just want to say I've done a 180 on my take on the no zero policy. Great job explaining things!

[SilverGS]

Thanks for clearing that up.

Definitely a huge difference between what I think most people were thinking from the news article to what we now know.

They left out the huge fact that a MEV on one item could cause you to redo the entire class regardless of performance in the other assignments/tests.

One final thing though. If a student did have an MEV. Is it up to the discretion of the teacher to either pass them with the MEV by using only the available scores or is it pretty much you have an MEV so too bad?

If a teacher does have say, what is to stop them from allowing a student to get a bunch of MEV but still give them a grade based on what they did hand in?

[undercoverbrother]

wow, an exchange of ideas resulting in a change of opinion, refreshing

[polak]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

wow, an exchange of ideas resulting in a change of opinion, refreshing

Wait this can still be done...

Hitler inspired a change of opinion too.

[FlamesFanStrandedInEDM]

For the "No Zero Policy" to be effective, It needs to be all or nothing regardless of their success for the rest of the course. So I would say as long as I've been clear of my expectations all year, they shouldnt be surprised with a fail. Perhaps an oppurtunity to appeal the 1 or 2 MEV to the Principal or Superintendant would be an option?

But for it to be effective everyone needs to be on board, when everyone has the same understanding of the policy the students wont dare to call a bluff and will rather complete their work the first time instead of the following year with the kids a grade behind him or her.

[SilverGS]

That is great to hear. Not that I am an expert but it sounds good. Make them accountable, no freebies yet still have options open because sometimes life just kicks you in the nuts and to be punished for that would look pretty bad.

You changed my mind as well FFSIE

[corporatejay]

Yeah, this is way worse than giving zeros, I didn't read David Copperfield nor complete the accompanying assignment in grade 12 and still did reasonably well in English. It was a pretty big assignment too which under this new system would have caused me to fail.

[Cecil Terwilliger]

The no zero policy still sounds kinda stupid to me. Perhaps someone can enlighten me because I can't wrap my head around some of this and it hasn't been explained.

So I decide not to write an exam early in the semester. Do I not deserve a zero? So I get an MEV and get to the end of the year and find out I'm not going to get credit for the course. I write the test, thus creating extra work for the teacher and I've just learned a valuable lesson that I can pretty much do whatever I want on my own schedule, and I end up getting an 80%.

I now pass the course and everyone is happy. Well except the fact that all the other kids had to actually write the test 3 months ago and I got off easy and just wrote it later when I felt like it.

To go to the previous analogy of only completing 8 of the 10 tasks assigned me by my boss, it just goes to show how stupid the no zero policy really is.

Could you seriously imagine your boss being like "well sorry Cecil, no promotion for you because you didn't complete project x but if you hand in anything right now I'll at least give you some credit for and you can get that promotion!!"? I certainly cannot.


What they really want is a policy like a lot of university classes that state that you must receive a passing grade on all assignments to pass. This means you can't skip assignments or just hand in a blank piece of paper.

I'd like a little clearer explanation of what types of assignments this pertains to, what the consequences are and how they are rectified. It sounds to me like it is just another helicopter parent type policy that coddles our children and lets them do pretty much whatever they want and instead of facing serious consequences are given the opportunity to just get a second chance at a later date and get off scot free without ever having to take responsibility for their actions.

[FlamesFanStrandedInEDM]

Cecil,

The very base of the "No Zero Policy" is accurate assessment. If you were to go onto Alberta Education and take a look at a few curriculum's you wont find ANY that specify the importance of deadlines. Teachers are hired to teach to the curriculum. One curriuclum objective/outcome could state that "The student understands the effects of Globalization on the 3rd world". The teacher's job is to assess that outcome alone, behavior and tardiness do not come into play as it does not state "The student understands the effects of Globalization with a smile on their face" or "The student understands the effects of Globalization by September 13". If the teacher is teaching to the curriculum, they are only grading the outcome. Schools today are not graded on a bell-curve, they are graded on the knowledge of outcomes. So it shouldnt matter that the other students wrote the test 3 months earlier. If the student knows the outcomes, he knows the outcomes.

Children will have decades to learn the lessons behind punctuality and work ethic. They are in school to learn Math, Science, Social Studies, English, along with a bunch of other courses. The primary goal of schools are for students to Learn the curriculum.

As for the assignments that would fall under this policy....On a previous post to SilverGS i specified the difference between Formative Assessment and Summative Assessment. I know a lot of people have a problem coming to terms with this, but not everything that is done in a classroom is done for marks.

Formative Assessment are the activities that the teacher uses to teach the content, it gives them feedback on students understanding of the material. These activities do not count for marks. So thats why some of you may have come home as a child proud of your 100% on your Crossword on the "Giver", but the reality, it wasnt for marks and thats why your grade in English didn't seem to align with your "Giver Crossword"

Summative Assessments are what assignments that would fall under the umbrella of the "No Zero Policy". These are the assignments that the teacher would use for Marks. These come at the end of units to test the understandings of the curriculum outcomes. It is meant to give the teacher a "snapshot" of everything that student does or doesn't know. These may come in the form of Tests, Essays, Group Projects, Presentations. It takes everything the kid learned and thrown at the teacher to grade.

[SilverGS]

I guess the deadline issue would come down to whether the teacher themselves want to teach that by applying penalties for late assignments and exams written late. That is what they did in my day.

For exams you could just institute a deadline for rewriting the exam and if you don't you get an MEV and potentially screw yourself over by having to repeat the course.

[Cecil Terwilliger]

Originally Posted by FlamesFanStrandedInEDM

Cecil,

The very base of the "No Zero Policy" is accurate assessment. If you were to go onto Alberta Education and take a look at a few curriculum's you wont find ANY that specify the importance of deadlines. Teachers are hired to teach to the curriculum. One curriuclum objective/outcome could state that "The student understands the effects of Globalization on the 3rd world". The teacher's job is to assess that outcome alone, behavior and tardiness do not come into play as it does not state "The student understands the effects of Globalization with a smile on their face" or "The student understands the effects of Globalization by September 13". If the teacher is teaching to the curriculum, they are only grading the outcome. Schools today are not graded on a bell-curve, they are graded on the knowledge of outcomes. So it shouldnt matter that the other students wrote the test 3 months earlier. If the student knows the outcomes, he knows the outcomes.

Children will have decades to learn the lessons behind punctuality and work ethic. They are in school to learn Math, Science, Social Studies, English, along with a bunch of other courses. The primary goal of schools are for students to Learn the curriculum.

As for the assignments that would fall under this policy....On a previous post to SilverGS i specified the difference between Formative Assessment and Summative Assessment. I know a lot of people have a problem coming to terms with this, but not everything that is done in a classroom is done for marks.

Formative Assessment are the activities that the teacher uses to teach the content, it gives them feedback on students understanding of the material. These activities do not count for marks. So thats why some of you may have come home as a child proud of your 100% on your Crossword on the "Giver", but the reality, it wasnt for marks and thats why your grade in English didn't seem to align with your "Giver Crossword"

Summative Assessments are what assignments that would fall under the umbrella of the "No Zero Policy". These are the assignments that the teacher would use for Marks. These come at the end of units to test the understandings of the curriculum outcomes. It is meant to give the teacher a "snapshot" of everything that student does or doesn't know. These may come in the form of Tests, Essays, Group Projects, Presentations. It takes everything the kid learned and thrown at the teacher to grade.

I still get the idea of properly assessing a students knowledge, but I am baffled, absolutely floored at how dismissive you seem to be towards the other lessons that kids learn in school. It really explains why so many kids are so unprepared once they reach real life and university, because they've been coddled all their lives through school.

So why do teachers have due dates at all? Why not let the students choose when their assignments are due? If it doesn't matter why not just say everything must be completed by year end?

Is it not vastly unfair to have one set of kids hand in their paper on Sept 13 but another set of kids can have 3 extra months to refine that paper and make it better? Are there not severe late penalties for missed assignments?

What if the kid decides to just hand in a blank piece of paper? Would that not be enough to get them to get a mark similar to a zero but at least it would be a mark and not an MEV?

When he gets fired from his job for not completing tasks or drops out of university for being a failure do you really think the excuse "but I knew the material by the end of the year" is going to work?

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by FlamesFanStrandedInEDM

Had that Edmonton teacher had the students hand in at least a sheet of paper with a half-assed attempt with their name on it, he may not be in this mess. He could of shown the principal and superintendant "Look, this is what they handed in"

Do you teach English?

[FlamesFanStrandedInEDM]

Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger

I still get the idea of properly assessing a students knowledge, but I am baffled, absolutely floored at how dismissive you seem to be towards the other lessons that kids learn in school. It really explains why so many kids are so unprepared once they reach real life and university, because they've been coddled all their lives through school.

So why do teachers have due dates at all? Why not let the students choose when their assignments are due? If it doesn't matter why not just say everything must be completed by year end?

Are there not severe late penalties for missed assignments?

When he gets fired from his job for not completing tasks or drops out of university for being a failure do you really think the excuse "but I knew the material by the end of the year" is going to work?

I do agree that there should be penalties for late assignments....but once you take that penalty out of their mark. That mark is no longer an accurate representation of what that student knows. Since you say that you are on board for properly assessing students knowledge, where do you thinkt he penalties should come from?

Teachers are there to teach the curriculum, the minute you are penalizing a student for "late assignments" from their earned mark. You are throwing in your own criteria that is not sanctioned by the big guys who create Alberta's curriuclums.

I'm not dismissing the fact that there are other thing that are important for students to learn while they're at school. But as a teacher, you can only teach and assess based on what is in the Program of Studies.

Ass-kissing, being well liked, being compliant , being respectful...These are all things that will take you far in life. However, none of which are in the Program of Studies on a level that can be assessed. There is an element of creating good contributing citizens, but nothing that can be graded.

[FlamesFanStrandedInEDM]

Originally Posted by flameswin

Do you teach English?

I have, but not on my Blackberry

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by FlamesFanStrandedInEDM

Cecil,



Children will have decades to learn the lessons behind punctuality and work ethic. They are in school to learn Math, Science, Social Studies, English, along with a bunch of other courses. The primary goal of schools are for students to Learn the curriculum.

.

If you were talking about someone in grade 3, fine. But in this case we are talking about high school students who are about to enter post secondary education or real life jobs. They need to know these rules now.

I also disagree that the primary goal of schools is to have "students learn the curriculum". Of my 12 years of primary/secondary education and 4 years post secondary education I can only remember a fraction of what was taught. What I did learn was how to problem solve and how to find answers on my own, just like we all have to do in the real world.