Edmonton teacher suspended for giving zero's

[Locke]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

Again do you have a souce? FYI, $30K and $50K are a biug difference.

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=tim+hortons+manager%27s+salary

Apparently a manager makes about $60,434/year

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by Locke

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=tim+hortons+manager%27s+salary

Apparently a manager makes about $60,434/year

yeah I saw that thanks, but was looking for a little strong source.

[shermanator]

Originally Posted by Bertuzzied

What a joke. I didn't weep and complain when I got a .9 GPA in my first semester at the U of C!

That explains a lot...

[Stay Golden]

Whiny kids, you don't want a zero or incomplete. At least complete your assignments.
Its pathetic to not complete assignments.
Do these kids even understand incomplete is far from acceptable.

[Cecil Terwilliger]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

Again do you have a souce? FYI, $30K and $50K are a biug difference.

A source for what? I didn't make any claims.

[HOOT]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

yeah I saw that thanks, but was looking for a little strong source.

I don't have a printed source but I have friends that own 3 Tim Horton's and according to them their managers make anything from $55-70k a year, depending on experience, location, etc. Each Tim Horton's is owned individually so there is no set salary for the position but I have heard anything from $35k in Saskatoon to $85k in Toronto.

[sun]

Jesus, that seems like a lot of money to manage a Tim Horton's.

[FlamesFanStrandedInEDM]

I was delighted to see this guy lose his job.

As i discovered acouple pages ago, many people don't understand the justification for the "No Zero Policy". So I'm not going to waste anymore time trying to explain it.

Whether you understand the policy or not, this employee was not following a policy that was clearly posted by his employer and lost his job as a result. If "Mr. Downtown Office" was neglectful of putting the cover pages on his TPS reports, he would of been axed too. He could have taken this cover page policy to the news and papers!He could get everyone up in arms about how ridiculous his dismissal was! But the fact is, he was not following the proper procedure of his employer and he lost his job over it. It happens all the time. It seems that since this situation is happening to a teacher in the public eye, everyone has an opinion on it.

I believe this will send a message to many of the "I've been teaching for 20 years I dont have to change for anybody" teachers who are still at large in schools all over the country.

Like the business world, school environments are dynamic and always changing and requires team players. Either keep up or get out.

[albertGQ]

Originally Posted by Bertuzzied

What a joke. I didn't weep and complain when I got a .9 GPA in my first semester at the U of C!

Holy. Someone had a lower GPA then me. Mine after a full year was 1.02

[polak]

Originally Posted by FlamesFanStrandedInEDM

I was delighted to see this guy lose his job.

As i discovered acouple pages ago, many people don't understand the justification for the "No Zero Policy". So I'm not going to waste anymore time trying to explain it.

There is literally, NO possible way that you could convince me that a "No Zero Policy" for incomplete assignements or tests with all incorrect answers is a good thing. Ever. I don't care if Stephen Hawking abandoned astronomy and devouted his life to proving that this stupid policy is justified, I still would not support it.

Unless you tell me No Zero Policies cure cancer, I ain't buying it.

As for him breaking policy, I agree. I think he should have gone to the media after the first warning, raised a fuss and then maybe public outcry would get the policy removed.

[FlamesFanStrandedInEDM]

Originally Posted by polak

There is literally, NO possible way that you could convince me that a "No Zero Policy" for incomplete assignements or tests with all incorrect answers is a good thing. Ever. I don't care if Stephen Hawking abandoned astronomy and devouted his life to proving that this stupid policy is justified, I still would not support it.

Unless you tell me No Zero Policies cure cancer, I ain't buying it.

As for him breaking policy, I agree. I think he should have gone to the media after the first warning, raised a fuss and then maybe public outcry would get the policy removed.

The Policy does not have to be removed. Zeros GIVE credit for work not done. When all the grades are averaged together WITH zeros. That mark then reflects an average for the whole course. If you did in fact not complete a few units. You are getting by easy by receiving a Zero. Here is a picture i posted earlier in the thread to show this.
In the picture, which CP Member is getting credit for work not done?

The teacher's job is to accurately assess students progress. If you look into the different curriculums in Alberta. Grades are meant to be based on the curriculum objectives. Giving Zeros does not grade curriculum objectives, it only punishes behavior. A curriculum objective may say "Student shows an understanding of the ultranationalism" not "Student shows and understanding of ultranationalism by March 10th, or with a smile on their face" Grades are 100% meant to be based on the students ability to meet curriculum criteria and not behavior issues. Unhanded in work would be considered a behavior. Giving a zero to that student does not accurately show what the student does or does not know.

A public outcry would not remove the policy because its obvious the public knows nothing about the policy. These policies are put in place by the "Stephen Hawkings" of Educational Assessment.

[SilverGS]

FFSIE. Could I get some clarification of how it works then.

So say there are 10 assignments/exams in a course and Johnny only completes 7/10.

So with 3 MEV and a final score of MEV how does it work. The teacher would make a call whether to ignore the MEV and his final grade is the average of the 7 completed items? But the no free ride only comes when they have enough MEV's for the teacher to say sorry you fail do the course again because you only completed 5/10? And this is dependant on each teacher?

What about weight of each assignment/exam? I recall having midterms and finals worth way more than assignments in many classes but assignments worth a lot in other classes. So if the midterm and finals are worth total 80% and the student got avg 80% on them but skipped 5 assignments for 5 MEV's but those were worth only 20% of the final grade would they still be passed?
Same with the reverse. If assignments were worth 80% and exams worth 20% could they do all the assignments and get MEV's for the exams and pass the course with a good average?

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by FlamesFanStrandedInEDM

The Policy does not have to be removed. Zeros GIVE credit for work not done. When all the grades are averaged together WITH zeros. That mark then reflects an average for the whole course. If you did in fact not complete a few units. You are getting by easy by receiving a Zero. Here is a picture i posted earlier in the thread to show this.
In the picture, which CP Member is getting credit for work not done?

The teacher's job is to accurately assess students progress. If you look into the different curriculums in Alberta. Grades are meant to be based on the curriculum objectives. Giving Zeros does not grade curriculum objectives, it only punishes behavior. A curriculum objective may say "Student shows an understanding of the ultranationalism" not "Student shows and understanding of ultranationalism by March 10th, or with a smile on their face" Grades are 100% meant to be based on the students ability to meet curriculum criteria and not behavior issues. Unhanded in work would be considered a behavior. Giving a zero to that student does not accurately show what the student does or does not know.

A public outcry would not remove the policy because its obvious the public knows nothing about the policy. These policies are put in place by the "Stephen Hawkings" of Educational Assessment.

When did "MEV" become a mark? Missing Evidence is a final mark?

That's where it all falls down for me.

[Stay Golden]

My Brother In law who teaches High school SS and Media in Edmonton tells me that from what has been discussed amongst other colleagues that this teacher has given out 6 Zeros out of his last 150 students and the students that received Zeros it was not their final mark but Zero's on assignments which of course effected the final mark. They were given Zeros because they skipped classes and didn't do particular assignments. These same students skipped several other teachers classes too. The Teacher also in all 6 cases gave the students the remainder of the semester to complete the assignments in order to be given an accurate grade.
All 6 of these students just accepted the Zero and would not complete the assignments.
The parents need to be held accountable also instead of complaining after the fact as the teacher further contacted them about the situations through parent teacher interviews and phone messages.

[FlamesFanStrandedInEDM]

Think of MEV as a final mark = Your taking the class again.

Where the "No Zero Policy" falls down, is that it needs to be approached by a school and division collectively at the same expectation. Instead, what some teachers do is just circumvent the policy by giving them an alternative failing mark for that unit. (25% instead of 0%)

The "No Zero Policy" can in fact keep students MORE accountable for their work if it means the alternative is them having to take the course again. Then its the parents fighting the School Division on the

"What do you mean you wouldnt give my son a zero! Thats ridiculous! Just give him a zero and let him go on!"

MEV is WORSE and much harder of a punishment than a Zero is. Your either handing in the missing assignments, or your retaking the class next semester. The problem is that everyone is talking about how students and kids these days are sooo entitled and can get away with anything. But when I tell them that this is what the "No Zero Policy" in action is, they feel its all of a sudden to harsh. I had this coversation several pages ago with some others.

People want students to be more accountable for their own work, but not at the risk of making them fail

[SilverGS]

Ok so is there any flexibility? Does this mean that if a student misses any of the required items they have to redo the entire course again?

So 90% 90% 90% 90% 90% 90% 90% MEV 90% = MEV and having to redo the class?

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by FlamesFanStrandedInEDM

Think of MEV as a final mark = Your taking the class again.

Where the "No Zero Policy" falls down, is that it needs to be approached by a school and division collectively at the same expectation. Instead, what some teachers do is just circumvent the policy by giving them an alternative failing mark for that unit. (25% instead of 0%)

The "No Zero Policy" can in fact keep students MORE accountable for their work if it means the alternative is them having to take the course again. Then its the parents fighting the School Division on the

"What do you mean you wouldnt give my son a zero! Thats ridiculous! Just give him a zero and let him go on!"

MEV is WORSE and much harder of a punishment than a Zero is.

So, to use you example, if I was a 90% student, but missed an assignment I would get an MEV and could not pass?

[polak]

Edit: NVM now I get it.

Thats what I was going to say. Either you give them a zero or an incomplete for the course.

[FlamesFanStrandedInEDM]

Originally Posted by SilverGS

What about weight of each assignment/exam? I recall having midterms and finals worth way more than assignments in many classes but assignments worth a lot in other classes. So if the midterm and finals are worth total 80% and the student got avg 80% on them but skipped 5 assignments for 5 MEV's but those were worth only 20% of the final grade would they still be passed?
Same with the reverse. If assignments were worth 80% and exams worth 20% could they do all the assignments and get MEV's for the exams and pass the course with a good average?

The other part i haven't even touched on is Formative Assessment vs Summative Assessment. My understanding of the "No Zero Policy" is that it only really applies for Summative Assessments.
Formative Assessment are activities that do not count for grades. They are assignments that have been made to help the teacher determine if the class or student is ready for a summative assessment.

The Summative Assessments are those big assignments that are being missed that count for grades. Attendance is not one of thse assessments. Believe it or not, the only curriculum that I have experienced that actually has a "Attendance requirement" is Phys Ed

The ideal "No Zero Policy" would have a student not receive credit for the course until all Summative Assessments have been completed. And therefor it could be 1 MEV that has them taking the class again.

[polak]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

So, to use you example, if I was a 90% student, but missed an assignment I would get an MEV and could not pass?

I've had a few courses in post-secondary where thats the case.

It makes sense. You can't leave part of the course unfinished. You can still make a terrible last minute attempt but you have to atleast hand something in.