CalgaryNEXT Discussion pt. 2

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by corporatejay

Yes. and I'll tell you what. I'll sign on for giving the Stampeders $17,000,000 if they can get a stadium built for that.

The Moncton Stadium (French: Stade Moncton) is a track and field stadium on the campus of the Université de Moncton in Moncton, New Brunswick, Canada, built to host the IAAF 2010 World Junior Championships in Athletics.[5] The $17 million venue opened in 2010. Although seating capacity had fluctuated early in construction (original plans called for as many as 28,000 seats), the stadium has 10,000 permanent seats, and is expandable to 20,725 via temporary seating.[1]

Yep, sign me up for 17 million for a stadium owned by the city.

Somehow though I don't think that gets it done.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Robbob

The city of Edmonton is putting up a lot more than that.

https://www.edmonton.ca/projects_pla...agreement.aspx

the loan for the tickets and "rent" is put up by the city. Also that 1.8B number that Calgary city council put out stretched things a bit.

Edmonton number also includes road infrastructure costs which is where the Calgary proposal really dropped the ball.

[Frequitude]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

I strikes me that Calgary had lost some swagger. We've lost our boldness.
I think we should look for reasons to do stuff like build a new stadium and host the Olympics and then layer on reality and the right way to so it
Instead it feels like generally we are trying to find reasons not to do it
If Edmonton can find a way surely we can.

Ya, and we've become a hell of a lot smarter and gained a hell of a lot of experience with designing and constructing major capital assets. We aren't trying to find a reason not to do it. We're trying to find an intelligent reason to do it and struggling to do so. Pretty much all I've seen in here are unnamed extreme sports events, unnamed festivals, unnamed events, becoming a world class city, and keeping up with the big boys. Those aren't reasons to do anything. They are magic beans.

Originally Posted by TheAlpineOracle

Winnipeg, Ottawa, Hamilton, Saskatchewan all have brand new stadiums. BC, Toronto, and Edmonton all have refitted stadiums. I don't see any logic to the "We don't need it" crowd. Is Calgary right and every one else wrong? Doubtful.

Christ, even Moncton, NB got a brand new outdoor stadium that has allowed them to host multiple events (CFL, Track and Field, Woman's World Cup, MLS Exhibition, Francophone Games, Concerts, etc. ). They are even in the process of building a state of the art downtown arena that seats 10K for a friggen QMJHL team.

So some retrofitted and some built new. Interestingly, it appears the bigger closer to world class cities retrofitted and the smaller cities built new. Sign me up for "keeping up with the big boys" and retrofit.

Originally Posted by nik-

Especially if they get over their spat with the Stampede board and just build it on the grounds.

There is no such thing as a spat. The owners just simply want to go somewhere they can have complete control and all revenue. Simply business. Can't blame them for trying. The Stampede would love to keep the arena on site.

[lazypucker]

For the calibre of CFL, McMahon is pretty adequate. You say it lacks washrooms and food stands? Why not just rip apart one full section of the stand and build a giant facilities there. You can have your hotdog stands, beer gardens, and even put like 500 urinals there.

I have never seen McMahon being full, losing a few sections to turn it into facilities should be ok.

Honestly, the Flames people are thinking way too big. Calgary only has a populations of a million and change, we can't expect a Wembley to be built here.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Frequitude

Which types of festival events can only go in a 25,000 seat stadium instead of other locations in and around the city? Which extreme sports events can only go in a 25,000 seat stadium instead of other locations in and around the city?

Where I live I have options for multiple music festivals every year, seeing the biggest acts in the business. Calgary is supposed to be such a cosmopolitan place they should certainly be able to handle a few big festivals a year? Oh wait, I forget you have no need for a big stadium where these events can play. You have Fort Calgary and Prince’s Island! Who were the headliners at your festivals again? Not quite the same as what a major city can draw.

I can’t really speak to the extreme sports set, as it isn’t my bag. All I know is our stadium is booked every quarter for some goofy X event and the locals eat the #### up. I don’t get it, but that is kind of the point, I don’t have to. These people enjoy those events and fill the place up. Who would I be to say that they shouldn’t have access to those events because I thought it was a waste of money?

On soccer, I'll give you that one as a possibility. But I don't want to get into a build it and they will come situation. Tell me you're going to come and from which league and then I'll decide if I want to build it.

I’m so glad you’ll give me that.

On championship events, which specific championship events are you referring to outside of the Grey Cup? Because I'm pretty sure there's nothing holding us back from hosting a Grey Cup in a renovated McMahon.

The only thing holding back anyone from hosting a Grey Cup in Calgary is the crap weather. Same can be said for a number of possible events. A new stadium with a roof and ability to control the climate sure would go a long way to solving that issue. Other events would be track and field, soccer, rugby, etc. There are many options. Again, just because YOU have no interest in something does not mean other people do not.

On "big boy", who are these "big boys" you are referring to and why do I need to run with them?

We’ll start with those real epic titans, like Edmonton, Regina and Winnipeg. That doesn’t even begin talking about the cities we normally try and compare Calgary to, Vancouver, Montreal and Toronto. The facilities in Calgary are behind the likes of Hamilton. That’s damn embarrassing. You can’t even run with the other adolescents let alone the big boys.

You need to look around the rest of the world and see the facilities in smaller cities. Glasgow, Scotland, has three stadiums of 50,000 seats or larger, for their national football league. Glasgow is similar in size to Calgary.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

Good question. Some consider calgary to be world class already. If we aren't then I think we should strive to be. Isn't that part of the justification when folks were arguing for the Peace Bridge?

I don't know what the criteria is but we should set the bar high and then raise it again if we hit it.

I strikes me that Calgary had lost some swagger. We've lost our boldness.
I think we should look for reasons to do stuff like build a new stadium and host the Olympics and then layer on reality and the right way to so it
Instead it feels like generally we are trying to find reasons not to do it
If Edmonton can find a way surely we can.

That is the Canadian way to be honest with you. It is a stark contrast between the United States and Canada in that regard. Canadians look for excuses not to do something and Americans just run in guns ablazing. Sometimes it pay off, sometimes it blows up in your face. You never know unless you try.

[corporatejay]

Originally Posted by New Era

That is the Canadian way to be honest with you. It is a stark contrast between the United States and Canada in that regard. Canadians look for excuses not to do something and Americans just run in guns ablazing. Sometimes it pay off, sometimes it blows up in your face. You never know unless you try.

When it comes to building stadiums we should really be following the US model. What could possibly go wrong.


http://www.dallasnews.com/news/mckin...cials-trustees

[Frequitude]

Thanks for taking the time to respond.

Where I live I have options for multiple music festivals every year, seeing the biggest acts in the business. Calgary is supposed to be such a cosmopolitan place they should certainly be able to handle a few big festivals a year? Oh wait, I forget you have no need for a big stadium where these events can play. You have Fort Calgary and Prince’s Island! Who were the headliners at your festivals again? Not quite the same as what a major city can draw.

Do you have any idea how many festivals Calgary hosts every year? We've have an extraordinarily festival rich city. I mean, it's Wikipedia, but here's a list. Major music ones include Folk Fest, Calgary International Blues Festival, International Reggae Festival, and Sled Island. You literally couldn't have picked a worse justification for new stadium > retrofitted stadium in this city.

I can’t really speak to the extreme sports set, as it isn’t my bag. All I know is our stadium is booked every quarter for some goofy X event and the locals eat the #### up. I don’t get it, but that is kind of the point, I don’t have to. These people enjoy those events and fill the place up. Who would I be to say that they shouldn’t have access to those events because I thought it was a waste of money?

Just curious, where do you live and how big is the stadium? I'm not saying we shouldn't host these events, I'm saying you don't need a brand new stadium to do it. Give me a list of extreme sports events that can only go in a new stadium and not in a renovated McMahon or somewhere else in and around Calgary. If you can't, its just another magic bean.

The only thing holding back anyone from hosting a Grey Cup in Calgary is the crap weather. Same can be said for a number of possible events. A new stadium with a roof and ability to control the climate sure would go a long way to solving that issue.

So no more Grey Cups in any outdoor Canadian stadiums hey? Not Edmonton, not Regina's new stadium, not Winnipeg's new stadium, not Montreal's, not Ottawa's new stadium, not Hamilton's new stadium? BC and Skydome every year it is then.

[corporatejay]

Toronto is hosting it at BMO this year.

[Frequitude]

Originally Posted by corporatejay

Toronto is hosting it at BMO this year.

LOL. BC Place every year it is then.

[Tinordi]

You can't put a price on being able to say that you're a world class city to the other folks you know from your city.

[Robbob]

Originally Posted by Tinordi

You can't put a price on being able to say that you're a world class city to the other folks you know from your city.

kind of like a social license

[cam_wmh]

Originally Posted by Tinordi

You can't put a price on being able to say that you're a world class city to the other folks you know from your city.

this might be the only post in this thread, that gets a laugh out of me.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by New Era

That is the Canadian way to be honest with you. It is a stark contrast between the United States and Canada in that regard. Canadians look for excuses not to do something and Americans just run in guns ablazing. Sometimes it pay off, sometimes it blows up in your face. You never know unless you try.

Half the cities in the U.S. are hell-holes compared to Calgary. But I guess since they're hell-holes with $200 million stadiums they're some kind of model for public policy.

Sorry, I'll take boring stuff like balanced municipal ledgers, effective public transportation, schools that work, and safe public parks you can take your family to over the guns a'blazing approach.

[Cappy]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

I'm really not confident that a McMahon renovation is sufficient. I know the term world class is being used tongue in cheek but it is an important point. Just renovating McMahon would say a lot about our city

It is not an important point. It never will be. No one associates sports venues with "world class".

Go look at any world city rankings. How many of those cities have are there because of professional sports infrastructure?

I was just in Minneapolis. Two brand new stadiums; but we don't consider it to be "world class". Nobody is saying, lets go to Minny!"

Don't get me wrong, Minneapolis was a fine city and a fun one. We went there to use those facilities, but that wasn't what made the city worth visiting.

[PeteMoss]

Originally Posted by Cappy

It is not an important point. It never will be. No one associates sports venues with "world class".

Go look at any world city rankings. How many of those cities have are there because of professional sports infrastructure?

I was just in Minneapolis. Two brand new stadiums; but we don't consider it to be "world class". Nobody is saying, lets go to Minny!"

Don't get me wrong, Minneapolis was a fine city and a fun one. We went there to use those facilities, but that wasn't what made the city worth visiting.

Exactly - how many stadiums or arenas can an average person name from Paris, Barcelona, Rome, etc. This whole world class thing is a buzz word straight from some marketing handbook.

How many people are going to consider Calgary for a trip but then decline because the CFL stadium is a bit rundown.

[Frequitude]

Originally Posted by Cappy

It is not an important point. It never will be. No one associates sports venues with "world class".

Go look at any world city rankings. How many of those cities have are there because of professional sports infrastructure?

I was just in Minneapolis. Two brand new stadiums; but we don't consider it to be "world class". Nobody is saying, lets go to Minny!"

Don't get me wrong, Minneapolis was a fine city and a fun one. We went there to use those facilities, but that wasn't what made the city worth visiting.

Melbourne is probably the only one people going to throw out there. Obviously its got a bunch more going for it, but the Melbourne Sports and Entertainment Precinct is pretty awesome.

But your point still stands. Sports venues, especially for the type sports Calgary would ever be home to, are not going to make this city world class.

[Cappy]

Originally Posted by Frequitude

Melbourne is probably the only one people going to throw out there. Obviously its got a bunch more going for it, but the Melbourne Sports and Entertainment Precinct is pretty awesome.

But your point still stands. Sports venues, especially for the type sports Calgary would ever be home to, are not going to make this city world class.

I would agree that Melbourne is one of those cities that people will throw out there, and I had no clue what their sport facilities are like.

Melbourne is also 4x the size of Calgary. Its larger than Vancouver and Montreal. The population alone can support more expensive venues, not to mention the corporate and marketing opportunities.

[Frequitude]

Originally Posted by Cappy

I would agree that Melbourne is one of those cities that people will throw out there, and I had no clue what their sport facilities are like.

Melbourne is also 4x the size of Calgary. Its larger than Vancouver and Montreal. The population alone can support more expensive venues, not to mention the corporate and marketing opportunities.

Oh ya, totally agree. Just pre-empting the inevitable mention.

And the sports Calgary will ever be home to on a regular basis (NHL, CFL...maybe MLS) completely pale in comparison to Melbourne (major tennis tournament, some of the biggest cricket matches in the world, some of the biggest rugby matches in the world).

Guys, ya of course I want a new stadium. It would be great. I just don't want to pay for it because I don't think there is enough benefit. If someone wants to build one privately, have at 'er. I will really appreciate it.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Frequitude

Thanks for taking the time to respond.

Do you have any idea how many festivals Calgary hosts every year? We've have an extraordinarily festival rich city. I mean, it's Wikipedia, but here's a list. Major music ones include Folk Fest, Calgary International Blues Festival, International Reggae Festival, and Sled Island. You literally couldn't have picked a worse justification for new stadium > retrofitted stadium in this city.

Just curious, where do you live and how big is the stadium? I'm not saying we shouldn't host these events, I'm saying you don't need a brand new stadium to do it. Give me a list of extreme sports events that can only go in a new stadium and not in a renovated McMahon or somewhere else in and around Calgary. If you can't, its just another magic bean.


So no more Grey Cups in any outdoor Canadian stadiums hey? Not Edmonton, not Regina's new stadium, not Winnipeg's new stadium, not Montreal's, not Ottawa's new stadium, not Hamilton's new stadium? BC and Skydome every year it is then.

I had a point by point rebuttal to this, but it dawned on me that this is fruitless. We just have very different expectations. When you think that "festivals" like the ones you outline are major, we have different perspectives, and its all about scales of magnitude. I'm talking about festivals where the headliner draws as many fans as the entire lineup for the Calgary Folk Festival. So completely different expectations.

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Half the cities in the U.S. are hell-holes compared to Calgary. But I guess since they're hell-holes with $200 million stadiums they're some kind of model for public policy.

Sorry, I'll take boring stuff like balanced municipal ledgers, effective public transportation, schools that work, and safe public parks you can take your family to over the guns a'blazing approach.

I would like to know what makes Calgary so awesome that other cities are hell-holes in comparison? Again, scales of magnitude count here.