CalgaryNEXT Discussion pt. 2

[Bunk]

Originally Posted by Zarley

The alternatives simply do not make sense. Now that there's traction behind the project, I don't see any other site going ahead.

The alternative does make sense.

Arena on Stampede - no infrastructure costs, no remediation, lots of parking, transit available, complementary use to stampede.

Renovated McMahon - can be done for a reasonable cost, already well located, better to have outdoor than indoor (arguably).

New Fieldhouse - situated on originally planned site at Foothills, better suited for athletes and U of C, no use conflicts, etc.

[nik-]

But Bunk ... world class

[Frequitude]

Made it to my first Stamps game of the year this weekend (boo me for not making it happen til September). Had a great experience, but would have liked a back on my seat and a better concourse. Seems like something that could easily be accomplished with renovations. Slap on new seats, relocate the bathrooms and kitchen/beer facilities to an adjoining structure on the parking lot and use all that space for a bigger renovated concourse. I remain firmly entrenched in the renovate crowd.

[corporatejay]

Originally Posted by Tinordi

If that's what you think you can boil my point down to then you're debasing youself.

Well considering you haven't seen the EIA and are already calling it a joke I would say that you're being pretty dismissive.

How about we wait and see what it says, what variables they use and what conclusions we draw before we decide to call it a laughing stock.

And before you go and attack me I suggest you go through this thread and note that you and I are pretty aligned on this issue.

[Senator Clay Davis]

Originally Posted by Frequitude

Made it to my first Stamps game of the year this weekend (boo me for not making it happen til September). Had a great experience, but would have liked a back on my seat and a better concourse. Seems like something that could easily be accomplished with renovations. Slap on new seats, relocate the bathrooms and kitchen/beer facilities to an adjoining structure on the parking lot and use all that space for a bigger renovated concourse. I remain firmly entrenched in the renovate crowd.

To me they should be able to reduce capacity and use up the freed up space to put more washrooms and concession space. Games rarely get to 30,000 capacity and it's unlikely that will change any time soon (if ever again), so if you got rid of sections A, X, L and M you could use that space instead. Then fix up the existing sections and it's a solid CFL venue.

[Joborule]

If they opt to keep McMahon and renovate it, ideally (if the market economics are there) they would reduce capacity by taking away the nosebleed seats and replace them with luxury suits and press boxes.

And for the seats lost from the nosebleeds, they can replace them as endzone seating in the north end and possibly the south end as well. But either way, the south end should be part of the stadiums concourse so there is connection from the southwest and southeast and you can walk around the entire stadium.

[JiriHrdina]

I'm really not confident that a McMahon renovation is sufficient. I know the term world class is being used tongue in cheek but it is an important point. Just renovating McMahon would say a lot about our city

[Senator Clay Davis]

Not to go massive tangent or anything, but twice in the past week I've been waiting for a train at 39th in rush hour, and gotten 1 train in 15 minutes, and of course it's full so I can't even get on. That's not even close to a world class city. This city has so many other things it needs to clean up to be considered world class well before an arena/stadium. If we prioritize a new arena/stadium over things like transit and infrastructure, it means we wanna be seen as a superficially world class city and not an actual world class city.

[Zarley]

Originally Posted by Bunk

The alternative does make sense.

Arena on Stampede - no infrastructure costs, no remediation, lots of parking, transit available, complementary use to stampede.

Not when you actually get into the numbers. New arena at Stampede - $450 million private dollars, same as CalgaryNEXT.

Originally Posted by Bunk

Renovated McMahon - can be done for a reasonable cost, already well located, better to have outdoor than indoor (arguably).

Based on comparable projects and input from cost consultants, the cost to bring McMahon to a modern standard is not really feasible. The stadium is in need of the following:

- Seats throughout ($10 million or so based on Commonwealth seat replacement)

- Some type of roof covering a portion of the stands. ($55 million to put in place at BMO).

- A climate controlled concourse that is double the square footage of the current one (the current concourse is built for a stadium of 22,000). If you do this, you still have to contend with the tight column spacing for the upper stand supports. (There is no precedent for this exact project, but interior renovations to BC Place, which were cosmetic in nature, were completed in 2009 at a cost of $65 million. Obviously, McMahon concourse renovations would cost more.)

- Expanded corporate box seating. It would be best to have a ring of suites midway up the stands and a second deck cantilevered over these, but this would require demolition of the existing upper stands. A very costly endeavour.

- Plus the cost to host games at a temporary stadium during the renovation ($15 million for Empire Field).

- Added costs resultant from any unpleasant surprises uncovered during the renovation.

So approximately $150-200 million or higher in total and we're still left with a stadium that isn't particularly outstanding, can't host events in the winter, and isn't in a great location. Based on what's happened in every other Canadian city, the majority of this is going to be publicly funded as well.

Originally Posted by Bunk

New Fieldhouse - situated on originally planned site at Foothills, better suited for athletes and U of C, no use conflicts, etc.

So add an additional $200 million public dollars for a standalone fieldhouse.

At the end of the day, under your plan we are spending $350-400 million in public funds to extend the life of an aging stadium for an additional 20 years and build a fieldhouse while doing nothing to solve the blight in the West Village area. This doesn't take advantage of any of the synergies or economies of scale that arise from building a combined facility - which only makes sense to do when we have two complimentary use buildings that are reaching replacement age.

[Senator Clay Davis]

Originally Posted by Zarley

Not when you actually get into the numbers. New arena at Stampede - $450 million private dollars, same as CalgaryNEXT.



Based on comparable projects and input from cost consultants, the cost to bring McMahon to a modern standard is not really feasible. The stadium is in need of the following:

- Seats throughout ($10 million or so based on Commonwealth seat replacement)

- Some type of roof covering a portion of the stands. ($55 million to put in place at BMO).

- A climate controlled concourse that is double the square footage of the current one (the current concourse is built for a stadium of 22,000). If you do this, you still have to contend with the tight column spacing for the upper stand supports. (There is no precedent for this exact project, but interior renovations to BC Place, which were cosmetic in nature, were completed in 2009 at a cost of $65 million. Obviously, McMahon concourse renovations would cost more.)

- Expanded corporate box seating. It would be best to have a ring of suites midway up the stands and a second deck cantilevered over these, but this would require demolition of the existing upper stands. A very costly endeavour.

- Plus the cost to host games at a temporary stadium during the renovation ($15 million for Empire Field).

- Added costs resultant from any unpleasant surprises uncovered during the renovation.

So approximately $150-200 million or higher in total and we're still left with a stadium that isn't particularly outstanding, can't host events in the winter, and isn't in a great location. Based on what's happened in every other Canadian city, the majority of this is going to be publicly funded as well.



So add an additional $200 million public dollars for a standalone fieldhouse.

At the end of the day, under your plan we are spending $350-400 million in public funds to extend the life of an aging stadium for an additional 20 years and build a fieldhouse while doing nothing to solve the blight in the West Village area. This doesn't take advantage of any of the synergies or economies of scale that arise from building a combined facility - which only makes sense to do when we have two complimentary use buildings that are reaching replacement age.

What you want here is your dream stadium. What is really needed and would be acceptable can be done for far less than that. The half roof? Waste of money, not needed. The climate controlled concourse is not necessary and isn't worth it from a cost/benefit. Expanded corporate boxes? No way, I seriously doubt there's demand for more corporate boxes, or that it's effecting their earning potential, unlike the Flames. So right there I've already chopped your budget in half, and the stadium experience still improves a lot. Might not be your dream stadium, but a 2nd rate league doesn't deserve dream stadium status.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

I'm really not confident that a McMahon renovation is sufficient. I know the term world class is being used tongue in cheek but it is an important point. Just renovating McMahon would say a lot about our city

The Flames years ago looked at renovating McMahon and found it wasn't cost effective. It's an old style fully concrete facility and thus costly to change. You don't need to be a civil engineer to know that renovating steel structures is considerably easier. That small concourse is all concrete and I'm no expert but I don't know how you could enlarge it without weakening the structure. It really comes down to asking if it's worth spending over $100 million to renovate when say $225 million gets you a completely new facility.

It cost $813 million to renovate Soldier Field in Chicago and just over 10 years later it's being looked at as a major mistake as they are now looking at having to do more renovations and whispers are that they may look at building a new stadium. It's a cautionary tale that lipstick on a pig can end up as very expensive lipstick when it cannot cover the fact it's still a pig.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

What you want here is your dream stadium. What is really needed and would be acceptable can be done for far less than that. The half roof? Waste of money, not needed. The climate controlled concourse is not necessary and isn't worth it from a cost/benefit. Expanded corporate boxes? No way, I seriously doubt there's demand for more corporate boxes, or that it's effecting their earning potential, unlike the Flames. So right there I've already chopped your budget in half, and the stadium experience still improves a lot. Might not be your dream stadium, but a 2nd rate league doesn't deserve dream stadium status.

You're not helping your cause being petty and calling the CFL 2nd rate. It's one of the oldest leagues in a North America and is entrenched in Canadian history.

[Bunk]

Originally Posted by Zarley

Not when you actually get into the numbers. New arena at Stampede - $450 million private dollars, same as CalgaryNEXT.

No environmental remediation, no structure over Bow Trail, No structured parking (~$50,000+ a stall). It would be impossible for it to be the same cost.

Based on comparable projects and input from cost consultants, the cost to bring McMahon to a modern standard is not really feasible. The stadium is in need of the following:

- Seats throughout ($10 million or so based on Commonwealth seat replacement)

OK

- Some type of roof covering a portion of the stands. ($55 million to put in place at BMO).

Necessary? No

- A climate controlled concourse that is double the square footage of the current one (the current concourse is built for a stadium of 22,000). If you do this, you still have to contend with the tight column spacing for the upper stand supports. (There is no precedent for this exact project, but interior renovations to BC Place, which were cosmetic in nature, were completed in 2009 at a cost of $65 million. Obviously, McMahon concourse renovations would cost more.)

No need to climate control. You're at an outdoor game, concourse can be outside

- Expanded corporate box seating. It would be best to have a ring of suites midway up the stands and a second deck cantilevered over these, but this would require demolition of the existing upper stands. A very costly endeavour.

Nah. Put em toward the top, reduce the total seating

- Plus the cost to host games at a temporary stadium during the renovation ($15 million for Empire Field).

Could be done off-season if keeping it simple

- Added costs resultant from any unpleasant surprises uncovered during the renovation.

A built in contingency factor

So approximately $150-200 million or higher in total and we're still left with a stadium that isn't particularly outstanding, can't host events in the winter, and isn't in a great location. Based on what's happened in every other Canadian city, the majority of this is going to be publicly funded as well.

Call it an even $100m (half from CSEC, 1/4 City from Community Investment Fund, 1/4 from U of C/Province

So add an additional $200 million public dollars for a standalone fieldhouse.

Yes. Planned for a long time.

At the end of the day, under your plan we are spending $350-400 million in public funds to extend the life of an aging stadium for an additional 20 years and build a fieldhouse while doing nothing to solve the blight in the West Village area. This doesn't take advantage of any of the synergies or economies of scale that arise from building a combined facility - which only makes sense to do when we have two complimentary use buildings that are reaching replacement age.

CalgaryNext makes West Village make less financial sense, not more. The plan does a lousy job of leveraging complementary uses (shuttles people right from LRT into building), it isolates real estate from the LRT station, does not solve the Bow Trail problem, does not leave enough land base to recover initial borrowing costs,and over-saturates the urban land market which has limited demand and abundant supply.

...

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

What you want here is your dream stadium. What is really needed and would be acceptable can be done for far less than that. The half roof? Waste of money, not needed. The climate controlled concourse is not necessary and isn't worth it from a cost/benefit. Expanded corporate boxes? No way, I seriously doubt there's demand for more corporate boxes, or that it's effecting their earning potential, unlike the Flames. So right there I've already chopped your budget in half, and the stadium experience still improves a lot. Might not be your dream stadium, but a 2nd rate league doesn't deserve dream stadium status.

Then expect more and more fans to stay away.

[Senator Clay Davis]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

You're not helping your cause being petty and calling the CFL 2nd rate. It's one of the oldest leagues in a North America and is entrenched in Canadian history.

That's nice, but if most players in your league would rather be a third stringer in another league, it's 2nd rate. And yeah its true, NFL minimum salary is $450,000 USD plus every year you play you get into the NFL pension fund too which pays out much more than the CFL fund. Just because the reality is harsh doesn't mean it isn't real.

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

Then expect more and more fans to stay away.

Doesn't matter really. League is like the NFL now, all about that TV money and every single team is profitable because of the TV deal. Stamps attendance has been going down for years, but it hasn't hurt them at all financially because of the increased TV money.

[cam_wmh]

edited. nm.

[TheAlpineOracle]

My wife is the perfect example of why McMahon is not suitable anymore. She gets pretty pissed that I have season tickets with all my friends to most teams in Calgary and she's basically excluded until one of them can't go.

This year, both of them backed out on the Stampeders (can't justify spending the money for the CFL, but that's another debate).

I still wanted to go and figured I could kill two birds with one stone buying her a season ticket along side me.

I downgraded tickets and got two of the cheapies in section J (not bleacher but they have no back). From day 1 she has been complaining about the stadium experience, the lack of atmosphers, the weather, the seats, etc. Any other game we go to in other venues or cities, she had no problem just going and crowd watching and getting a few concessions/beers. As we moved from August to September, she's now looking (and found) reasons not to go. She told me next year she doesn't want season tickets, and I asked her if it would make a difference if I upgraded our seats back to the Red ones, and she said nope. Doesn't want to be there. No atmosphere, pain in the ass to get around the concessions, issues with bathrooms, #### quality concessions, and her list went on and on.

Now you may say that's just my wife and doesn't mean anything and she's only one person. I don't believe that the case. In my mind, she represents the casual fan. The fan in the CFL that gets attendance up from 17-18K to 25K. This woman will go to roughneck games, has followed to Okotoks for baseball, went to many Viper games when they existed, but she's flat out refusing to go to McMahon anymore and therein lies the problem. Most people on this message board are super fans. We all might not get along on here, but we are all kind of the same type of fan that will go sit in the cold at some crappy venue because we love the game. Unfortunately there isn't enough of us to float a professional sports team.

The CFL is going to have a slow painful decline in Calgary without a new venue. It doesn't have to be this CalgaryNEXT monster, but it has to be something. Next time you go to the game, take a look around. Most of the fans are 50-60 years old (especially in the Red and Blue seats). There's next to no new blood entering that stadium. Basically losing a generation of new fans.

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

That's nice, but if most players in your league would rather be a third stringer in another league, it's 2nd rate. And yeah its true, NFL minimum salary is $450,000 USD plus every year you play you get into the NFL pension fund too which pays out much more than the CFL fund. Just because the reality is harsh doesn't mean it isn't real.



Doesn't matter really. League is like the NFL now, all about that TV money and every single team is profitable because of the TV deal. Stamps attendance has been going down for years, but it hasn't hurt them at all financially because of the increased TV money.

Then why renovate at all?
Half measures in this type of area end up being the worst.

[corporatejay]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

Then why renovate at all?
Half measures in this type of area end up being the worst.

Now you're talking my language.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

Then why renovate at all?
Half measures in this type of area end up being the worst.

Why should the city be involved at all? They don't want another football stadium, they want a fieldhouse. What does it matter what the flames and stamps want? The university and the city should be able to get together to do a fieldhouse which is something they both want, without having to include a football stadium which neither of them really want.

It is the flames that need to prove that including then makes sense for all parties.

Why does the city if Calgary need a 100 million dollar football stadium again?