2016 NHL Draft

[bucksmasher]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

Tkachuk is an elite complimentary player. He's an elite playmaker. He's elite at going to the net without the puck. He can play with highly skilled players and make them better. I don't see how Marner setting up his goals is a bad thing at all. We have Gaudreau, Monahan and Bennett who all look like elite playmakers/finishers like Marner is. Marner looks better in that video because of Tkachuk. Tkachuk dishes off to Marner, crashes the net and takes two defenders with him. That opens the ice up for Marner. Tkachuk screened for many of the Marner goals. At the NHL level you often cannot score without a screen. When Marner has the puck, Tkachuk gets open on the side of the net, he shows excellent instincts for both receiving and setting up passes across the crease and in the slot.

Think for a minute about what type of player you'd want to play with Gaudreau/Monahan. You don't want someone who wants to hog the puck. You do want someone who will drive the net. You do want someone who will win board battles. And that someone needs to be highly skilled in order to set up Gaudreau/Monahan and finish when they set them up. It's not always easy to find a player who compliments two highly skilled guys and will do the dirty work for them. We tried almost everyone possible on the roster and arguably Ferland looked the best. Well Tkachuk is like a much, much more skilled version of Ferland, probably less of a hitter. Gaudreau can't win many board or net front battles. Monahan doesn't excel in that area either. Tkachuk does. His strengths are their weaknesses. He would compliment their skill set.

The video proved my point just fine. Tkachuk is not a low skilled player who only picked up points because Marner and Dvorak were on his line like some are suggesting. He contributes a lot to that line's success. Now maybe you just don't appreciate complimentary players to the degree you should?

He does seem to be hanging around the net a lot in that Tavares-ish area

[schooner]

Went to the Kelowna/Victoria game last night.

Lucas Johansen seems like an interesting prospect. Brother of Ryan Johansen. Central scouting has him at 28 in North America. So maybe grab him with a second.

Smooth skater, had a couple nice break outs, moved the puck well.

On another note, Joe Hicketts for Victoria looked really good. Noticeably better than anybody on the ice. Undersized for sure, but Detroit might have a good one.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by Vulcan

I haven't been impressed with Chychrun and after that give away, I hope we don't take him. The guy seems to try to do too much.

Missed parts of the game due to girlfriend distraction but what can ya do.

Pretty brutal giveaway for Chychrun, couldn't be worse really. He has all the tools but does seem to have the occasional brainfart. Fabbro has made better, safer decisions overall but isn't quite as physically gifted as Chychrun. I think Chychrun is a safe pick but I'm not sure he's more than a #2/3. I think I like Tkachuk/Dubois ahead of him for the Flames.

Liked Logan Stanley again. He got two penalties for what I'd describe as being bigger and stronger than the opposition. Both penalties would've been good rubbing out plays in the NHL IMO. Gotta like that he has a bit of bite in his game and at his size he could be one of those huge, physical defensive defensemen that are actually really hard to find these days. He has great mobility for his size and can move the puck well enough. If we get the DAL 1st I doubt he'd still be there but I'd love to get him.

Jost continued to impress. Really smart, makes great plays, great passes, gets to loose pucks, hard on the puck. I think he'd be a great pick in the teens.

Howden looked strong again. Kyrou impressed me again. Both would be appealing players. McLeod looks okay but hasn't really impressed me enough to want the Flames to take him top 8.

Can't wait to see Canada vs Finland and Puljujarvi tomorrow. That will finally be a tough test for Canada. Note that one is at 2:30 pm I believe.

[1qqaaz]

Originally Posted by schooner

Went to the Kelowna/Victoria game last night.

Lucas Johansen seems like an interesting prospect. Brother of Ryan Johansen. Central scouting has him at 28 in North America. So maybe grab him with a second.

Smooth skater, had a couple nice break outs, moved the puck well.

On another note, Joe Hicketts for Victoria looked really good. Noticeably better than anybody on the ice. Undersized for sure, but Detroit might have a good one.

I'm surprised that no one used a late pick on Joe Hicketts. He was over a point-per-game as an 18 year old defenseman.

[Moneyhands23]

Originally Posted by 1qqaaz

I'm surprised that no one used a late pick on Joe Hicketts after he was over a point-per-game as a defenseman at 18 years old.

I live in victoria and I see a lot of Royals games. Joe is amazing, although ge occasionally gets to fancy and can get caught out.

[Da_Chief]

Originally Posted by schooner

Went to the Kelowna/Victoria game last night.

Lucas Johansen seems like an interesting prospect. Brother of Ryan Johansen. Central scouting has him at 28 in North America. So maybe grab him with a second.

Smooth skater, had a couple nice break outs, moved the puck well.

On another note, Joe Hicketts for Victoria looked really good. Noticeably better than anybody on the ice. Undersized for sure, but Detroit might have a good one.

Could have been a bad tourny but I really disliked Hicketts game during last world juniors. Didn't help that his junior coach over-played him.

Fabbro really seems to be impressing lately. Some team is going to get lucky with him.

[JJ1532]

You can always tell the discussion has gone on for too long when people start criticising the prospects for the perceived holes in their game. Dubois plays in the Q, his offence won't translate. Nylander is too small and won't cope in the big leagues. Tkachuk relies on outstanding line mates, he isn't an elite playmaker. Chychrun has weaknesses. Wonder how long it is before the top 3 start getting criticised?

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by JJ1532

Nylander is too small and won't cope in the big leagues.

I don't think that's the knock of Nylander. I think it's moreso that he's a poor fit on our team. Think Eberle on the Oilers.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

Tkachuk is an elite complimentary player. He's an elite playmaker. He's elite at going to the net without the puck. He can play with highly skilled players and make them better. I don't see how Marner setting up his goals is a bad thing at all. We have Gaudreau, Monahan and Bennett who all look like elite playmakers/finishers like Marner is. Marner looks better in that video because of Tkachuk. Tkachuk dishes off to Marner, crashes the net and takes two defenders with him. That opens the ice up for Marner. Tkachuk screened for many of the Marner goals. At the NHL level you often cannot score without a screen. When Marner has the puck, Tkachuk gets open on the side of the net, he shows excellent instincts for both receiving and setting up passes across the crease and in the slot.

Elite complimentary player? That's a new one. Elite passer? That video doesn't show that at all. He's not even the best passer on his line. Elite at going to the net? That's another new one. Marner looks elite in that video regardless of his line mates. He looks just as good with Jones or Piccinich. Tkachuk looks like a number of wingers who rode shot gun with two top end players. What I don't like is Tkachuk possesses no true elite skill. He doesn't have elite speed, nor puck skills, nor shot. To me you have to have some level of elite skill to go early in the draft. Being a complimentary player doesn't get your drafted top five.

Think for a minute about what type of player you'd want to play with Gaudreau/Monahan. You don't want someone who wants to hog the puck. You do want someone who will drive the net. You do want someone who will win board battles. And that someone needs to be highly skilled in order to set up Gaudreau/Monahan and finish when they set them up. It's not always easy to find a player who compliments two highly skilled guys and will do the dirty work for them. We tried almost everyone possible on the roster and arguably Ferland looked the best. Well Tkachuk is like a much, much more skilled version of Ferland, probably less of a hitter. Gaudreau can't win many board or net front battles. Monahan doesn't excel in that area either. Tkachuk does. His strengths are their weaknesses. He would compliment their skill set.

See, that isn't the point. You don't draft a complimentary player in the top of the draft. You get complimentary players in the later parts of the draft. You take players early that have potential to be exceptional in some capacity. That usually means you are drafting a player with a part of their game that is elite. With Tkachuk I see nothing elite. You also have to hope his game translates to the NHL. Will he be able to play the same type of game in the NHL? His father was able to, but his father had an extra two inches and 40 pounds on Matthew. He's a very different player and lacks many of the things that made his father a great player, things like an elite shot and elite physicality. To me, Matthew Tkachuk is a very raw and incomplete player.

The video proved my point just fine. Tkachuk is not a low skilled player who only picked up points because Marner and Dvorak were on his line like some are suggesting. He contributes a lot to that line's success. Now maybe you just don't appreciate complimentary players to the degree you should?

He's the third wheel on a line that features two of the best players in junior hockey. It didn't matter who the Knights played with Marner and Dvorak, they produced. Tkachuk getting opportunity to play the majority of his games on that line, especially on the PP, gave him a chance to rack up a lot of points. As point out and supported by the video, it was irrelevant who was out with Marner and Dvorak, they produced and looked good doing it. They made almost every player on their line look like a great complimentary player. Great players do that, and Marner and Dvorak are both top end talents.

Would I like a player like Tkachuk to play on the top line with Gaudreau and Monahan? Yes, I would, but Tkachuk is not the best fit. I think you can find a better fit later in the draft. I would prefer they got a true compliment to that line and found a right shooting RW with elite speed, finishing ability, and NHL size. There are players available that could meet that need and we don't have to waste a top 5 pick to snag a "complimentary" player.

[bucksmasher]

Originally Posted by New Era

Elite complimentary player? That's a new one. Elite passer? That video doesn't show that at all. He's not even the best passer on his line. Elite at going to the net? That's another new one. Marner looks elite in that video regardless of his line mates. He looks just as good with Jones or Piccinich. Tkachuk looks like a number of wingers who rode shot gun with two top end players. What I don't like is Tkachuk possesses no true elite skill. He doesn't have elite speed, nor puck skills, nor shot. To me you have to have some level of elite skill to go early in the draft. Being a complimentary player doesn't get your drafted top five.

See, that isn't the point. You don't draft a complimentary player in the top of the draft. You get complimentary players in the later parts of the draft. You take players early that have potential to be exceptional in some capacity. That usually means you are drafting a player with a part of their game that is elite. With Tkachuk I see nothing elite. You also have to hope his game translates to the NHL. Will he be able to play the same type of game in the NHL? His father was able to, but his father had an extra two inches and 40 pounds on Matthew. He's a very different player and lacks many of the things that made his father a great player, things like an elite shot and elite physicality. To me, Matthew Tkachuk is a very raw and incomplete player.



He's the third wheel on a line that features two of the best players in junior hockey. It didn't matter who the Knights played with Marner and Dvorak, they produced. Tkachuk getting opportunity to play the majority of his games on that line, especially on the PP, gave him a chance to rack up a lot of points. As point out and supported by the video, it was irrelevant who was out with Marner and Dvorak, they produced and looked good doing it. They made almost every player on their line look like a great complimentary player. Great players do that, and Marner and Dvorak are both top end talents.

Would I like a player like Tkachuk to play on the top line with Gaudreau and Monahan? Yes, I would, but Tkachuk is not the best fit. I think you can find a better fit later in the draft. I would prefer they got a true compliment to that line and found a right shooting RW with elite speed, finishing ability, and NHL size. There are players available that could meet that need and we don't have to waste a top 5 pick to snag a "complimentary" player.

Claaaaaaaaaaaaimer

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Agree to disagree on most of that. Marner is a completely different type of player than Tkachuk. Marner is a pure skilled forward (like Gaudreau on our team). If you have an entire line of pure skilled non-physical forwards who are below average in size or average size then its often not going to be a successful line. None of them are doing the dirty work retaining possession along the boards. None of them can survive going to the front of the net to screen the goalie and tip goals. This becomes even more important in the playoffs when refs will put away their whistles off and on and big, strong, physical defensemen are allowed to mug, wrestle and hack the small, purely skilled players into oblivion. We've seen it with Gaudreau on the road when the opposing coach can matchup his shutdown pair vs Lil Johnny.

IMO the most successful type of line follows a model like Sniper-Playmaker-Powerforward. In our case both Johnny and Monahan are actually dual threats with scoring/passing so even better. But they still need that physical, strong player to win board battles and drive the net because that opens up room for the more purely skilled guys, that screens the goalie, that gives someone in front to tip in or collect garbage rebound goals, that gives someone hard to move in front who is distracting at least one defenseman if not more. You do seem to underrate the importance of what complimentary players do on a successful dominant line.

Tkachuk is a different style of player than a purely skilled forward but no less important to the success of a line or a team. And just like an elite purely skilled forward can usually only be found at the top of the draft, an elite powerforward complimentary type also usually has to be taken high. A guy like Zach Kassian went top 15 because teams are starved for big, skilled players who can physically dominate against smaller defensemen and hold their own against big, huge defensemen. Tkachuk is a much more overall attractive package than Kassian and thus will go a lot higher (top 7 IMO). Tkachuk doesn't have as dominant a shot as a purely skilled player like Nylander or Marner. But what is elite about him is his overall package of size, strength, puck protection, passing, shooting, hockey sense, playmaking and vision, willingness to drive the net, ability to win board battles, and work ethic. I agree that none of his skills are truly elite but his skill level, size and style of game make his line mates better, make room for them and compliments purely skilled, smaller and/or less physical players. It's as hard to find those elite power forward complimentary players as it is to find the elite purely skilled players if not harder.

Keith Tkachuk wasn't 2 inches taller, he was listed at 6'1-6'2 when he was playing. Matt can still add a bit more weight to his frame and become really hard to body off the puck. I think Matt looks like a better passer, playmaker and puck handler than his dad but not as much of a big hitter.

Obviously we'll never see eye to eye on this one so I guess we don't need to rehash it from hereon. I think in the end I value the type of player that Tkachuk is more than some fans do. Some fans will always take a more purely skilled player, the more flashy, wow you player. But sometimes the guy who is doing all the little things like winning board battles, winning net front battles, driving the net, etc is as important to a dominant line and a line that could excel in the tighter checking playoffs.

Huselius was one of the most purely skilled forwards we've had in the last 10 years IMO. But was he the most important forward of the last 10 years? Nope. How strong, relentless, and physical a player is adds in to his value. You can be the most purely skilled guy in the world but if you can't win a battle along the boards and aren't strong enough or brave enough to survive going to the slot your effectiveness is going to be capped. Lil Johnny is elusive enough and brave enough to excel despite his size. But adding in a big, strong, physical skilled guy to his line will take that line to another level and it make it harder to focus in on Gaudreau himself. Having a triple threat line will make it a better line on the road. A complimentary power forward with decent size like Tkachuk would be a better fit for that line than a smaller more purely skilled guy like Shinkaruk.

[Five-hole]

Originally Posted by New Era

Elite complimentary player? That's a new one. Elite passer? That video doesn't show that at all. He's not even the best passer on his line. Elite at going to the net? That's another new one. Marner looks elite in that video regardless of his line mates. He looks just as good with Jones or Piccinich. Tkachuk looks like a number of wingers who rode shot gun with two top end players. What I don't like is Tkachuk possesses no true elite skill. He doesn't have elite speed, nor puck skills, nor shot. To me you have to have some level of elite skill to go early in the draft. Being a complimentary player doesn't get your drafted top five.

See, that isn't the point. You don't draft a complimentary player in the top of the draft. You get complimentary players in the later parts of the draft. You take players early that have potential to be exceptional in some capacity. That usually means you are drafting a player with a part of their game that is elite. With Tkachuk I see nothing elite. You also have to hope his game translates to the NHL. Will he be able to play the same type of game in the NHL? His father was able to, but his father had an extra two inches and 40 pounds on Matthew. He's a very different player and lacks many of the things that made his father a great player, things like an elite shot and elite physicality. To me, Matthew Tkachuk is a very raw and incomplete player.

He's the third wheel on a line that features two of the best players in junior hockey. It didn't matter who the Knights played with Marner and Dvorak, they produced. Tkachuk getting opportunity to play the majority of his games on that line, especially on the PP, gave him a chance to rack up a lot of points. As point out and supported by the video, it was irrelevant who was out with Marner and Dvorak, they produced and looked good doing it. They made almost every player on their line look like a great complimentary player. Great players do that, and Marner and Dvorak are both top end talents.

Would I like a player like Tkachuk to play on the top line with Gaudreau and Monahan? Yes, I would, but Tkachuk is not the best fit. I think you can find a better fit later in the draft. I would prefer they got a true compliment to that line and found a right shooting RW with elite speed, finishing ability, and NHL size. There are players available that could meet that need and we don't have to waste a top 5 pick to snag a "complimentary" player.

Man you really have an axe to grind with Tkachuk. You'd have to have blinders on not to notice his skill plays in that video. You said "I know it's a Marner video and I'm trying to remember that" but it seems like you've completely forgotten it.

Never mind that Marner and Dvorak are 1 and 2 years older.

If your claim is that they could put anyone out with Marner and Dvorak and they'd do just as well, then why is it Tkachuk the majority of the time? And why does he have way more points than those other guys you mentioned?

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by 868904

As for Dubois, the stats (points and size) are very intriguing, but I'm always wary of QMJHL players. You just never know with them. Watching Poirier in his draft and draft plus 1 season made me think he was a blue chip prospect, but after two minor pro seasons, he looks more like a 3rd liner. I also can't recall the last really good prospect to come out of the QMJHL. Mackinnon has been alright, but I think most expected more from the no. 1 overall. Drouin has had trouble adjusting, same for Mantha. Those were all from 2013. From 2014, Ehlers looks ok and there weren't even many high picks from the Q in 2015. The question for me is, are the QMJHL top prospects as good as their stats suggest, or are they just playing against inferior competition?

Wasn't Dubois a standout at the prospects game? That's hardly inferior competition.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Five-hole

Man you really have an axe to grind with Tkachuk. You'd have to have blinders on not to notice his skill plays in that video. You said "I know it's a Marner video and I'm trying to remember that" but it seems like you've completely forgotten it.

No axe to grind with Tkachuk, I just don't think he's that good. I think people get all hot and bothered over him because he scored a boatload of points playing with the two best players in the OHL. I thought Max Jones showed as much as Tkachuk when he was on the line. But then again, when you have two of the best players in the league on your line, and you play on a league powerhouse, it is pretty easy to look good from time-to-time. I am just not sold that Tkachuk does anything on that line that any number of players would not replicate with fair opportunity.

Never mind that Marner and Dvorak are 1 and 2 years older.

Irrelevant point. Tkachuk's skills have little to do with his age. We're talking about what should make Tkachuk a top five pick. Will he be a successful NHL player? Maybe the question to ask yourself is this. What do you think is going to happen when Marner and Dvorak shuffle off to Toronto and Arizona next season? Do you think Tkachuk is going to repeat this performance?

See, there's the cold harsh slap of reality. How would Tkachuk do on his own? How is he going to do without two of the best players in the OHL on his line? Well, the 8 goals he scored without Marner's direct involvement seems to be telling. Bottom line is Tkachuk doesn't have anything elite about him. He doesn't have great foot speed. He doesn't have a great shot. He doesn't have great puck skills. He doesn't do anything exceptional. The one thing he does well is get to the front of the net. The junior ranks are littered with players whose best skill was using their larger frame.

If your claim is that they could put anyone out with Marner and Dvorak and they'd do just as well, then why is it Tkachuk the majority of the time? And why does he have way more points than those other guys you mentioned?

Maybe the coach wanted to spread the scoring around and have an effective 2nd line? He tried Tkachuk off that line and he didn't score. Jones was on that line for a short time and scored, but continued to score without Dvorak and Marner. See, there's a telling stat. Jones had almost as many goals as Tkachuk, playing on a 2nd line and without the two best players in the OHL.

I'm just naturally very skeptical of guys that rack up huge numbers playing with two elite players. Just because those other two guys are elite doesn't necessarily make the last guy elite. I try and look at these kids to see who has the skills to be a NHL player, because you need specific skills to be a NHL player. You especially need to be able to skate and think at the NHL level. In Tkachuk I don't see a junior player with any elite skills. Guys like that scare me.

I'm not suggesting that Tkachuk is any where near the Bob Maudie level of leeching off his line mates, but I think his production is grossly inflated which is affecting people's judgement of his skill set. I think they are looking at the player and dreaming of him lining up next to Gaudreau and Monahan and project what they hope he'll be rather than evaluating him on what he is. If you judge him on his skill set he doesn't add up to the level of player his points lead you to believe he is. That is why I am extremely skeptical of Tkachuk and would have him down a draft list to middle of the first round and not discussing him as a top five pick. It seems every few drafts there is some kid that comes along that gets pumped up and drafted early because of his numbers and size advantage, but lacks those elite skills (Dal Colle, Virtanen, Connolly, Glennie, etc.). I don't want to be the team that selects that player. I think Tkachuk is that player in this draft because his point totals exceed the sum of his parts.

[DiracSpike]

I'm having a tough time with choosing who I want between Dubois and Tkachuk...both make me wary for different reasons, Tkachuk for the strength of his linemates/team and Dubois for playing in the Q. One of the things that made me hope we got Monahan in 2013 was his production on one of the most putrid teams in the OHL, kind of polar opposite to what Tkachuk is doing for the Knights.

I'd really love a poll to see what most people are thinking but I guess we have to wait for the lottery to happen first.

[868904]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Wasn't Dubois a standout at the prospects game? That's hardly inferior competition.

It is only one game. i am just basing the inferiority of the Q and its players on recent history. I find myself going back and forth between Tkachuk and Dubois. They are exactly what the Flames need, big skilled power forward types.

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by 868904

It is only one game. i am just basing the inferiority of the Q and its players on recent history. I find myself going back and forth between Tkachuk and Dubois. They are exactly what the Flames need, big skilled power forward types.

I don't think Tkachuk will be a power forward at the NHL level. He will not shy from physical play for sure but I see him more of a playmaker with some grit. I can't say anything about Dubois as I have not seen enough of him. I still have Nylander ranked above both. His skill set is unreal. No he is not a physical player but he will still open up a huge amount of ice for his linemates, especially if he is playing on the RW of the top line because he is extremely hard to contain much like JG. He has an absolute lethal shot and very good playmaking abilities to go with it. I don't see how you can even defend against a line with Gaudreau and Nylander together, one of them is going to burn you for sure. People on here talk like he is 5'6, the guy is 6 feet tall, size is not really an issue.

[Rick M.]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

I don't think Tkachuk will be a power forward at the NHL level. He will not shy from physical play for sure but I see him more of a playmaker with some grit. I can't say anything about Dubois as I have not seen enough of him. I still have Nylander ranked above both. His skill set is unreal. No he is not a physical player but he will still open up a huge amount of ice for his linemates, especially if he is playing on the RW of the top line because he is extremely hard to contain much like JG. He has an absolute lethal shot and very good playmaking abilities to go with it. I don't see how you can even defend against a line with Gaudreau and Nylander together, one of them is going to burn you for sure. People on here talk like he is 5'6, the guy is 6 feet tall, size is not really an issue.

I too wonder if Nylander might complement Bennet's game the same way Gaudreau complements Monahan.

[bigrangy]

I agree that Nylander is the best non-Finn fit into the long-term top 6. Dubois may be more talented, but I don't think he has the gamebreaking factor that Nylander does.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

CAN vs FIN coming up in 30 mins. Good chance to see the Canadians vs some real competition. Puljujarvi will be playing for Finland. Exciting!