Climate change and human responsibility

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Flames0910

For sure. Electric trucks, vans and semis are probably less exciting than consumer models but could make a huge difference in reducing vehicle emissions. And once the business case is proven, you could use whole fleets turning over not for the eco-cred but for the dollar savings.

https://www.greenbiz.com/article/8-e...ies-watch-2020

Delivery vans are a perfect target. Anything that drives around all day long, but doesn't cover obscene miles. In fact, all government's need to do is charge commercial ICE vehicles with a registration tax or something. It's perhaps a touch early for this, as there aren't many on the market. But soon.

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

What do you do in cities where almost all the residential parking is street parking? Just have extension chords running all over the place?

Forget range, forget cold weather, forget price. This will be the biggest barrier to penetration I think. It's solvable, but it'll need lots of solutions. Basically, you'll need lots of chargers around town mixed with better multifamily home solutions. If apartment blocks can get good subsidies for installing chargers, some decent on-street solutions that don't add a whole bunch of street furniture, and innovative ideas like combined street lamp/chargers, I think we can get there.

It's really chicken and egg though. You see this issue somewhat resolve itself in places like Norway once a market exists to solve it.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

Forget range, forget cold weather, forget price. This will be the biggest barrier to penetration I think. It's solvable, but it'll need lots of solutions. Basically, you'll need lots of chargers around town mixed with better multifamily home solutions. If apartment blocks can get good subsidies for installing chargers, some decent on-street solutions that don't add a whole bunch of street furniture, and innovative ideas like combined street lamp/chargers, I think we can get there.

It's really chicken and egg though. You see this issue somewhat resolve itself in places like Norway once a market exists to solve it.

I haven't quite figured out if it will be a problem or not. I'd imagine many city dwellers not needing to charge more than once or twice a week, so maybe it isn't a big deal to top up while you grab groceries, or go to the mall. On the other hand, you can't have chargers at every parking space, so maybe they end up being a shortage? Really tough to guess at, considering human behaviours.


What could be tragic would be something like an evac from a hurricane, with people running out of power trying to escape. It's not a quick 5 minute fill up at a gas station, and with chargers distributed for normal events, extraordinary ones could be a real problem.

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

I haven't quite figured out if it will be a problem or not. I'd imagine many city dwellers not needing to charge more than once or twice a week, so maybe it isn't a big deal to top up while you grab groceries, or go to the mall. On the other hand, you can't have chargers at every parking space, so maybe they end up being a shortage? Really tough to guess at, considering human behaviours.


What could be tragic would be something like an evac from a hurricane, with people running out of power trying to escape. It's not a quick 5 minute fill up at a gas station, and with chargers distributed for normal events, extraordinary ones could be a real problem.

The total opposite I think. Except for those without a bespoke charger, everyone can just make sure their car is plugged in the night before. Much harder to remember to make sure your tank is full of gas

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[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

The total opposite I think. Except for those without a bespoke charger, everyone can just make sure their car is plugged in the night before. Much harder to remember to make sure your tank is full of gas

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I don't know, the street that I live on, there must be people that get home really early and always have the same prime parking spot. Many others have to park a couple of blocks away near a woodlot. Maybe the city would turn it into real parking with charging stations, but it all goes back to how are cities are built which it the main problem.

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

I don't know, the street that I live on, there must be people that get home really early and always have the same prime parking spot. Many others have to park a couple of blocks away near a woodlot. Maybe the city would turn it into real parking with charging stations, but it all goes back to how are cities are built which it the main problem.

Agreed, but my point is that 100% of people need to go to a gas station to fill their car at some point before a hurricane. With EV's, at the very least a large chunk of those will just have a full battery when they wake up every morning and will not need a charger. There's also going to be way more chargers around than gas stations

[#-3]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

That's all fine, I just don't feel that if you are directly comprising the cost of 2 things, you should interlude taxpayer funded rebates to make the numbers match. If you want to make the statement "EV's have reached cost parity with ICE vehicles"I feel like that should be free of rebates.

I also don't really agree with rebates as structured. The only people who can afford an EV are the well off, so people who can't afford them have their tax dollars handed to people wealthier than them. I'd like to see rebates go away for anything over $30k.

If the goal is to reduce emissions as much as possible while adopting a limited amount of EV's, it makes far more sense to target the largest users, not the ones who drive a short distance every day. But that would mean giving money to businesses who put on lots of miles, and transit.

Fair points, but unfortunately we are looking to accelerate adoptions of new technologies, and the people who will be adopting are the affluent. It's not really a choice of supporting the poor or supporting the rich, its a choice of supporting a new technology or resigning ourselves to the status quo.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by #-3

Fair points, but unfortunately we are looking to accelerate adoptions of new technologies, and the people who will be adopting are the affluent. It's not really a choice of supporting the poor or supporting the rich, its a choice of supporting a new technology or resigning ourselves to the status quo.

They could structure the rebate so than range and not KWH was the criteria for the rebate.

A good example being the Ford Escape PHEV vs the RAV4 PHEV the Ford with better efficiency has a smaller battery and only qualifies for the $2500 rebate whereas the RAV4 qualifies for the larger rebate. So the lower impact vehicle gets a lower rebate because they went with a smaller electric engine.

[Cecil Terwilliger]

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

The total opposite I think. Except for those without a bespoke charger, everyone can just make sure their car is plugged in the night before. Much harder to remember to make sure your tank is full of gas

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What about rolling blackouts due to climate change? What about power being knocked out by the hurricane? Then how will people charge their cars?

What if there aren't enough charging stations during an emergency? Would we see fights and guns drawn during a crisis with neighbour fighting neighbour to charge their car?

[blender]

Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger

What about rolling blackouts due to climate change? What about power being knocked out by the hurricane? Then how will people charge their cars?

What if there aren't enough charging stations during an emergency? Would we see fights and guns drawn during a crisis with neighbour fighting neighbour to charge their car?

Gas pumps need power to operate, so the blackouts argument is moot. A crisis will be a crisis regardless of what vehicle is in vogue. The dude with a diesel pickup and a 300 liter tidy tank will be OK.

[Wormius]

Originally Posted by blender

Gas pumps need power to operate, so the blackouts argument is moot. A crisis will be a crisis regardless of what vehicle is in vogue. The dude with a diesel pickup and a 300 liter tidy tank will be OK.

A simple backup generator would be enough to power gas pumps.

[edslunch]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

That's all fine, I just don't feel that if you are directly comprising the cost of 2 things, you should interlude taxpayer funded rebates to make the numbers match. If you want to make the statement "EV's have reached cost parity with ICE vehicles"I feel like that should be free of rebates.

I also don't really agree with rebates as structured. The only people who can afford an EV are the well off, so people who can't afford them have their tax dollars handed to people wealthier than them. I'd like to see rebates go away for anything over $30k.

If the goal is to reduce emissions as much as possible while adopting a limited amount of EV's, it makes far more sense to target the largest users, not the ones who drive a short distance every day. But that would mean giving money to businesses who put on lots of miles, and transit.

Instead of rebates there should be a hella big carbon tax and let people act accordingly. Drive less, get a more efficient ICE car, get an EV. And don’t rebate it all to the consumer either - people need to feel real pain for consuming carbon.

We’re not going to avert a global crisis, one that is ultimately existential, without economic pain. When people talk about technology solutions to climate change they often invoke the heroic progress made during wartime as an example of society pulling together. Ask anyone who lived through that what real sacrifice is. We are so unwilling to do that.

[Fuzz]

The problem with taxing gas too heavily is you really hurt those who may be living paycheque to paycheque, but need a car to get to work. You also drive up the price of goods. So then you have to rebate that...


A carbon tax is one tool, but I think they have to be careful not to over-apply it.

[PeteMoss]

This pretty much where we are heading. Plan is to keep it rising each year. Will triple by 2030. (Subject to which party is in control of the government)

[edslunch]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

The problem with taxing gas too heavily is you really hurt those who may be living paycheque to paycheque, but need a car to get to work. You also drive up the price of goods. So then you have to rebate that...


A carbon tax is one tool, but I think they have to be careful not to over-apply it.

Imagine that carbon was poison. What would you do?

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by edslunch

Imagine that carbon was poison. What would you do?

The reality is society would collapse if we immediately banned all CO2 emissions. We'd freeze to death in the first winter. Which means it isn't as simple as calling it poison, so we do have to balance inevitable warming, and, well, not dying.

[PeteMoss]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

The reality is society would collapse if we immediately banned all CO2 emissions. We'd freeze to death in the first winter. Which means it isn't as simple as calling it poison, so we do have to balance inevitable warming, and, well, not dying.

Yes - replacing a car is something people do more often then replacing their furnace. But it is also (at least here) a spot where the carbon tax will need to move up to motivate people to do anything. Way cheaper to heat your house with gas than electricity.

[Mathgod]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

The problem with taxing gas too heavily is you really hurt those who may be living paycheque to paycheque, but need a car to get to work. You also drive up the price of goods. So then you have to rebate that...


A carbon tax is one tool, but I think they have to be careful not to over-apply it.

I wonder how many in the need-a-car-to-get-to-work crowd actually don't have any way to get to work other than driving a vehicle of their own, vs how many of them just really don't want to take transit or carpool.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Mathgod

I wonder how many in the need-a-car-to-get-to-work crowd actually don't have any way to get to work other than driving a vehicle of their own, vs how many of them just really don't want to take transit or carpool.

I'm thinking less about the middle class person living in Panorama Hills who could hop the bus downtown, and more about the already marginalized worker doing a night shift where transit takes 4 hours of their day(or doesn't run at those hours), and they drive the cheapest vehicle they can afford.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

I'm thinking less about the middle class person living in Panorama Hills who could hop the bus downtown, and more about the already marginalized worker doing a night shift where transit takes 4 hours of their day(or doesn't run at those hours), and they drive the cheapest vehicle they can afford.

Or people whose jobs require them to have their own vehicle because they may need to go in the field or run errands for their employer.

I think every job that I have had in my adult life had a requirement that you have your own vehicle to get to work and to use for work if necessary.