Israel declares war on Hamas

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by blankall

If Israel doesn't respond, Hamas would have treated this like a victory and them and every similar organization in the region would have repeated this. As others have stated in this thread, Hamas is supposedly keeping the settlers out of Gaza, which is why they have support. A "victory" like this would have only strengthened support behind them.

You're proposition that only religious fanatics and Jews support Israel is flat out wrong. Many people, of all walks of life, see what Israel is doing as, unfortunate, but necessary.

Yeah, I totally agree.

Was anybody saying Israel shouldn't respond?

[Winsor_Pilates]

https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/19/polit...men/index.html

Not sure if this was shared yet.
At first the target of the missiles was unknown but now they're suspecting it was towards Israel.

[flamesfever]

IMO Israel had no choice but to respond, and to do what they have to do long range to eliminate Hamas, including some sort of ground invasion.

I believe it shows extreme restraint, and good judgement that Israel has not conducted a ground invasion of Gaza up to this point. There is usually always a cooling off period where sober thought and careful preparation and planning takes place before such a thing happens.

I don't think anyone, including Israel, want a long drawn out war. And hopefully diplomatic channels will gradually help to prevent that from happening. I know the latest bombing of the hospital has negatively affected diplomacy, but hopefully when the truth of the matter is revealed, things will get back to normal.

I think all parties, including our worldwide press, should exercise restraint and good judgement in reporting events from here on.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by flamesfever

I think all parties, including our worldwide press, should exercise restraint and good judgement in reporting events from here on.

The press has become a major influencer in this conflict. Their bungling of the hospital incident totally derailed any kind of diplomatic action. Specifically, Jordan cancelled a planned summit between them, the USA and Egypt.

Unfortunately the media has been trained to be as sensationalist as possible, and there is a built in anti-Israel audience. A major chance to end the conflict was missed so that various media outlets could get more views.

[Leondros]

Originally Posted by opendoor

That's the problem, even during periods with little violence, both sides have significant amounts of their population and leadership who are basically intractable.

So you end up having the Israeli Prime Minister offering to cede about 95% of the West Bank for the creation of a Palestinian State in 2008, but the Palestinian Authority rejected that proposal, even though it's likely the best they'll ever get.

On the other hand, you have the West Bank having periods of general calm where the Palestinian Authority was pretty reasonable in its dealings with Israel. But the only result was Israel building more and more settlements and taking more and more land, while simultaneously degrading Palestinian infrastructure.

And then 10-11 years ago (which was a somewhat calm period) you also had significant portions of Jewish Israelis supporting systematic discrimination against Arab Israelis, including:

-1/3rd wanting the voting rights of Arabic Israeli citizens to be taken away

-59% wanting preference given to non-Arabs in government jobs

-49% wanting the state to give preference to Jews over Arabs in basically all matters

-42% not wanting their kids to be in the same class as an Arabic child

And in that same poll, 58% of Israelis agreed that Israel practised apartheid against Palestinians. So in light of that, it's not hard to see why little to no progress has been made on this.

Wow, if true, and your data is usually accurate and supported, that is wild. Before this started I admit I was quite ignorant on the subject. I would have told you that I would have leaned more pro-Israel having known more Jews and no Palestinians growing up. Having seen the posts of the Pro-Israel posters on here and their resistance to even having candid conversations I admit I am changing my tune. The above numbers also really shed more light on what the average Israeli is thinking and further reinforces the proposition that the two will never coexist sadly.

Some of my friends and acquaintances on social media and posting some radical things which is shocking. These people have never even been to Israel but feel strongly enough to close ranks. Obviously at this point in time I do not want to even broach the subject with them personally but hope to be able to one day when tensions reduce.

[opendoor]

Originally Posted by Leondros

Wow, if true, and your data is usually accurate and supported, that is wild. Before this started I admit I was quite ignorant on the subject. I would have told you that I would have leaned more pro-Israel having known more Jews and no Palestinians growing up. Having seen the posts of the Pro-Israel posters on here and their resistance to even having candid conversations I admit I am changing my tune. The above numbers also really shed more light on what the average Israeli is thinking and further reinforces the proposition that the two will never coexist sadly.

Some of my friends and acquaintances on social media and posting some radical things which is shocking. These people have never even been to Israel but feel strongly enough to close ranks. Obviously at this point in time I do not want to even broach the subject with them personally but hope to be able to one day when tensions reduce.

I mean, it was only one poll, so maybe it's not an accurate reflection of Israeli opinion, but the numbers are what they are:

The majority of the Jewish public, 59 percent, wants preference for Jews over Arabs in admission to jobs in government ministries. Almost half the Jews, 49 percent, want the state to treat Jewish citizens better than Arab ones; 42 percent don't want to live in the same building with Arabs and 42 percent don't want their children in the same class with Arab children.A third of the Jewish public wants a law barring Israeli Arabs from voting for the Knesset and a large majority of 69 percent objects to giving 2.5 million Palestinians the right to vote if Israel annexes the West Bank.
...
Although the territories have not been annexed, most of the Jewish public (58 percent ) already believes Israel practices apartheid against Arabs. Only 31 percent think such a system is not in force here.

https://archive.ph/JpNGr#selection-1035.1-1043.220

Almost half the poll's respondents said Israeli Arabs should be transferred to the Palestinian Authority, and a third said that Arab towns in Israel should be moved to the PA's jurisdiction in exchange for Jewish settlements in the West Bank.

According to the Haaretz report, the survey found that ultra-Orthodox Jews held the most extreme views about Arabs, with 70% supporting a legal ban on voting rights and 95% backing discrimination against Arabs in the workplace.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...theid-policies

[Beninho]

Originally Posted by Leondros

Wow, if true, and your data is usually accurate and supported, that is wild. Before this started I admit I was quite ignorant on the subject. I would have told you that I would have leaned more pro-Israel having known more Jews and no Palestinians growing up. Having seen the posts of the Pro-Israel posters on here and their resistance to even having candid conversations I admit I am changing my tune. The above numbers also really shed more light on what the average Israeli is thinking and further reinforces the proposition that the two will never coexist sadly.

Some of my friends and acquaintances on social media and posting some radical things which is shocking. These people have never even been to Israel but feel strongly enough to close ranks. Obviously at this point in time I do not want to even broach the subject with them personally but hope to be able to one day when tensions reduce.

You still are ignorant on the subject as there can be the same numbers shown with how arabs/Palestinians feel about Jews. There are pro-Palestinian posters on here who reject Jewish connection to the region, but they are reasonable? There are several posters who claim Israel is committing a genocide and equated Israel to the Nazis. But yes, base it off your social media feed. Just like you told me, how about you refrain from posting in this thread.

And sorry to break it to you, you changing your stance to pick one side or the other means absolutely less than nothing. Thanks for announcing it

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by gvitaly

You're too busy doing math, that you're missing the issue.

I would suggest your navel gazing is making you miss the issue. You can't dismiss the fact that Israel has been their own worst enemy in trying to maintain peace. The abuse of Palestinians. The continued forced settlements.

Israel is equal garbage you say?

As a nation with responsibilities to protect the rights of all citizens? Yes, garbage. Israel is an apartheid state. When South Africa pulled the same #### they were a pariah on the international stage and not trusted in any shape or form. What makes Israel different from South Africa and their treatment of their citizens? Never thought I would see anyone defend a country that engages in apartheid as part of its government policy.

What assurance does Israel have that this sort of thing won't happen again? none.

And what assurances do the Palestinians have that Israel will hold up the end of any deal made? I would say neither side has been good at holding up their end of bargains.

Why does the Hamas/Jihad shoot from populated areas?

Come on, this is obvious. It's insurgency tactics. They aren't a military nor have the capacity to operate as a military so they adopt the tactics that give them the best chance to impact the population and force change. You must certainly be able to understand that? Should such tactics be employed? No, not in the slightest. It is counterproductive to a final solution. But there is the problem. Hamas is not a representative of the people, they are an insurgent terrorist group fronted by a third nation with a mission to inflict pain and suffering on Israel.

The question you should be asking is what has driven the Palestinians to the point where they would prefer the help of a terrorist group to try and find a resolution to their problems?

Is there a way to achieve peace with the Hamas in charge of Gaza? NO!

Agreed. Hamas must be removed from the equation. They only ones who can make this happen is Israel. You have to appeal to the needs of the average Palestinian and find a way to win over their hearts and minds, because right now their hearts and minds are lost. Treat the Palestinians better than Hamas does and you'll start winning hearts and minds. You won't find peace until everyone is thought of as equal and treated equally.

[Bill Bumface]

Originally Posted by Beninho

You still are ignorant on the subject as there can be the same numbers shown with how arabs/Palestinians feel about Jews.

And it continues.

"Who cares about this crappy thing, because other side bad too!"

I promise you if the people of Israel or Gaza choose to excuse away everything bad happening on their side of the wall due to the actions of those across, things will never change.

People need to hold those in their "tribe" accountable too. It doesn't mean they just need to be better than the other guys in some arbitrary category, it means we need to move away from widespread acceptance of crap behaviour.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by Leondros

Wow, if true, and your data is usually accurate and supported, that is wild. Before this started I admit I was quite ignorant on the subject. I would have told you that I would have leaned more pro-Israel having known more Jews and no Palestinians growing up. Having seen the posts of the Pro-Israel posters on here and their resistance to even having candid conversations I admit I am changing my tune. The above numbers also really shed more light on what the average Israeli is thinking and further reinforces the proposition that the two will never coexist sadly.

Some of my friends and acquaintances on social media and posting some radical things which is shocking. These people have never even been to Israel but feel strongly enough to close ranks. Obviously at this point in time I do not want to even broach the subject with them personally but hope to be able to one day when tensions reduce.

One thing to remember is Israel is a country first, and a place inhabited by people who predominantly practice Judaism second. Being critical of Israel does not make you an anti-Semite, although you will see (and probably have seen in this thread) people make that leap. It's to shut you up to try to get you to let Israel operate with a degree of slack you wouldn't afford to other countries where you aren't factoring in religion at all in your opinion of them. Israel, the country, must be open to the same criticisms you'd merrily lob at Canada, USA, Germany, South Africa, India, Yemen, etc. etc. I don't accept when somebody screeches "AnTi-SeMiTiSm" if I criticize Israel's foreign policy, their government or the way they conduct themselves in the international community.

I mean, you do you, of course, but I try to approach it like that. Can be tricky and sometimes I bite my tongue if I don't feel like having to defend that point, but right now I'm trying not to give them a pass just because they expect it due to their religion.

[activeStick]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

I don't think it was what he meant either, but this requires clarification.


No, it wasn't. There simply wasn't evidence that the victims were beheaded. There was no dispute that those children were murdered. We need to be crystal clear about this.

It seems pretty obvious to me to release something as specific as "40 beheaded babies is". It's brutal and it's ruthless and it's disgusting. That's why it was released and while 1 murdered baby is too much, just like 40 murdered babies is too much , the impact of reading about the beheading (a very specific, direct and brutal act) is going to invoke much different reactions. And that was the purpose.

[Beninho]

Originally Posted by Bill Bumface

And it continues.

"Who cares about this crappy thing, because other side bad too!"

I promise you if the people of Israel or Gaza choose to excuse away everything bad happening on their side of the wall due to the actions of those across, things will never change.

People need to hold those in their "tribe" accountable too. It doesn't mean they just need to be better than the other guys in some arbitrary category, it means we need to move away from widespread acceptance of crap behaviour.

That was my point, to look at one graph of data the other side can produce another set of numbers and a counter argument . To say, “well I have seen things on social media so I am on their side now” is such an arbitrary and lazy take. In my honest opinion to “pick a side” is such a silly stance to take, and on an individual level it truly makes no difference. I am biased as I am Jewish and have family in Israel, but I also have a list of issues i have with the government as do other Jews and other Israelis. I do not view Israel as perfect, I have been anti-Settlements for as long as I can remember and pro two state solution. I really could care less to change somebodies views, if you already have a stance on this conflict I am not going to change your perspective, just like how you won’t be able to change mine.

What I do disagree with is people who look at this conflict in a vacuum, who are only interested in the situation when people are dying, and present numbers devoid of context. This has all happened in this thread.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by activeStick

It seems pretty obvious to me to release something as specific as "40 beheaded babies is". It's brutal and it's ruthless and it's disgusting. That's why it was released and while 1 murdered baby is too much, just like 40 murdered babies is too much , the impact of reading about the beheading (a very specific, direct and brutal act) is going to invoke much different reactions. And that was the purpose.

Except Israel didn't release that. The actual story is this:

Nicole Zedeck, a correspondent for the privately owned Israeli news outlet i24NEWS, said in the video that Israeli soldiers told her they’d found “babies, their heads cut off.” The video has been viewed more than 11 million times on X, according to its view counter. In another tweet, Zedeck wrote that soldiers told her they believe “40 babies/children were killed.”

“Somehow those two bits of information were connected, the story became ‘40 babies were beheaded,’ and in the British press today, about six or seven newspapers had it on their front pages,” Jones said.

https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/interne...ial-rcna119902

The position of the Israeli government was they could not confirm the story:

https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/12/middl...ntl/index.html

Israeli official says government cannot confirm babies were beheaded in Hamas attack

[Bagor]

Originally Posted by Beninho

That was my point, to look at one graph of data the other side can produce another set of numbers and a counter argument .

Feel free to produce a study with some form of analysis that counterargues against the commentary of the study.

A commentary by Gideon Levy, which accompanied the results of the poll, described the findings as disturbing. "Israelis themselves … are openly, shamelessly and guiltlessly defining themselves as nationalistic racists," he wrote.

"It's good to live in this country, most Israelis say, not despite its racism, but perhaps because of it. If such a survey were released about the attitude to Jews in a European state, Israel would have raised hell. When it comes to us, the rules don't apply."

[Beninho]

Originally Posted by Bagor

Feel free to produce a study with some form of analysis that counterargues against the commentary of the study.

I am not going to get into a back and forth with which side hates each other more. Should we take a look at the curriculum of Palestinian children in the west bank? Also, Gideon Levy is as biased as they come, there is hate on both sides of this. Zero argument there.

Still waiting on more evidence for the hospital bomb? Or have you learned to not believe Hamas yet?

[gvitaly]

Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald

As a nation with responsibilities to protect the rights of all citizens? Yes, garbage. Israel is an apartheid state. When South Africa pulled the same #### they were a pariah on the international stage and not trusted in any shape or form. What makes Israel different from South Africa and their treatment of their citizens? Never thought I would see anyone defend a country that engages in apartheid as part of its government policy.

You keep calling Israel apartheid state. I already gave you examples of why it isn't true. The Arabs in Israel have equal rights and obligations(they even aren't required to serve in the army, but can volunteer). Those Arabs are about 2.1M of the Israeli population. They participate in the elections, they have their own parties which were a part of the Kneset. They have a supreme judge. They don't want to be under Palestinian rule, or another country's arab rule.

You keep grouping the Palestinians as Israeli(arab) citizens. They're not. They aren't citizens, or residents they're Palestinian refugees, as a result of the 1948 war. They were urged to stay as refugees by the Arab world. Israel doesn't directly govern them. Moreover, the settlements you're referring to don't take any territory from Gaza. That was stopped in 2005 in the one sided disengagement. Where the Sharon government elected to destroy illegal Israeli settlements withdraw from Gaza, and get back to the 1949 line.

[Bagor]

Originally Posted by Beninho

I am not going to get into a back and forth with which side hates each other more. Should we take a look at the curriculum of Palestinian children in the west bank? Also, Gideon Levy is as biased as they come.

Still waiting on more evidence for the hospital bomb? Or have you learned to not believe Hamas yet?

Nobody is asking you to get into a back and forth.
Either acknowledge or refute the study.

Do you agree with the study and the Israeli journalist's commentary that

Israelis themselves … are openly, shamelessly and guiltlessly defining themselves as nationalistic racists," he wrote.

"It's good to live in this country, most Israelis say, not despite its racism, but perhaps because of it. If such a survey were released about the attitude to Jews in a European state, Israel would have raised hell. When it comes to us, the rules don't apply."

If not. Why not?

Yes. Always open to as much evidence as possible. I believe Hamas as much as I believe IDF.

I mean they've both shown that they've no issues targeting citizens then lying and blaming the opposite side.

[Leondros]

Originally Posted by Beninho

You still are ignorant on the subject as there can be the same numbers shown with how arabs/Palestinians feel about Jews. There are pro-Palestinian posters on here who reject Jewish connection to the region, but they are reasonable? There are several posters who claim Israel is committing a genocide and equated Israel to the Nazis. But yes, base it off your social media feed. Just like you told me, how about you refrain from posting in this thread.

And sorry to break it to you, you changing your stance to pick one side or the other means absolutely less than nothing. Thanks for announcing it

You are the main culprit, you are doing more harm to your cause than good. Can't you see that? If anything Israel needs more international support but you would rather promote hate and play the blame game. Can't you see that you stance, how you present yourself and your people is just causing harm? Shake my head.

[Beninho]

Originally Posted by Leondros

You are the main culprit, you are doing more harm to your cause than good. Can't you see that? If anything Israel needs more international support but you would rather promote hate and play the blame game. Can't you see that you stance, how you present yourself and your people is just causing harm? Shake my head.

I really do not care what you think, you felt the need to announce your stance, like it matters. It does not, none of our stances on site matter. Israel has international support. Go police another thread

[Leondros]

Originally Posted by Beninho

I am not going to get into a back and forth with which side hates each other more. Should we take a look at the curriculum of Palestinian children in the west bank? Also, Gideon Levy is as biased as they come, there is hate on both sides of this. Zero argument there.

Still waiting on more evidence for the hospital bomb? Or have you learned to not believe Hamas yet?

You can tell how absolutely unhinged you are on this subject as every single one of your posts for the last 20 pages has been edited multiple times over 15 minute periods. I can only imagine how horrific it would have been in Israel on October 7th and that should never ever have happened. But my feeling is Israel is on a course of action right now that will just perpetuate the same results for generations to come. If you truly want Israel to succeed there needs to a direction change in government policy. What has been done clearly is not working.

On the Palestinian side they are no where near blameless. But desperate and indoctrinrated people are an awful mix. I agree and believe with some of the posters here that if Hamas is removed, something similar or worse will fill the vacuum. The only way to stop that is to change the tactics that have failed over the past 50 years.