Israel declares war on Hamas

[Nage Waza]

You guys are just brutal, seriously.

Why don't you help explain why it mattered how Hamas murdered babies and compare that to how Hamas blamed Israel for a rocket attack that murdered 500 people and everyone seems to still believe it - even though it did not happen.

[calgarygeologist]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

114 pages

resolutions soone

Do you post this same nonsense in the Ukraine discussion?

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

That’s definitely what he was saying.

I don't think it was what he meant either, but this requires clarification.

Originally Posted by Activestick

The same thing happened at the start of the war when the west was reporting "40 beheaded babies". People on this forum were outraged (rightly so), Hamas was quick to deny they did it, but nobody believed them because they're on the other side and "reputable sources" for those in the west such as CNN, MSNBC, etc. took the story and ran with it. In fact, Joe Biden even said he never imagined he'd ever see photos of beheaded babies suggesting he saw photo evidence. "See!! We all knew they were the bad ones!!"

But then it was verified that it was all fake news.

No, it wasn't. There simply wasn't evidence that the victims were beheaded. There was no dispute that those children were murdered. We need to be crystal clear about this.

[Winsor_Pilates]

Originally Posted by activeStick

I think this is a very fair post and you're correct, some on each side are dug in and once "news" comes out, it doesn't matter later if it needs to be (and subsequently is) corrected.

The same thing happened at the start of the war when the west was reporting "40 beheaded babies". People on this forum were outraged (rightly so), Hamas was quick to deny they did it, but nobody believed them because they're on the other side and "reputable sources" for those in the west such as CNN, MSNBC, etc. took the story and ran with it. In fact, Joe Biden even said he never imagined he'd ever see photos of beheaded babies suggesting he saw photo evidence.

"See!! We all knew they were the bad ones!!"

But then it was verified that it was all fake news. The WH walked back Biden's statements and some news outlets walked back their earlier claims, while others just left it. And similar to your example, online and on this very board, some continued to bring up the 40 beheaded babies, just because.

And in the end, it just keeps the hate and anger going. Palestinians lives are not equivalent to other human lives (we feel this way by referring to them as animals that live in raw sewage). Sad to watch happen, but not surprising.

I see your point about the exaggeration of beheadings but Hamas did still kill hundreds of innocent civilians in very brutal manors.

Israel did not (so it seems) target and bomb a hospital at all.

Very different to dig your heels in where an atrocity did happen vs one where it wasn't even perpetrated by the side you're comdemning.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by calgarygeologist

Do you post this same nonsense in the Ukraine discussion?

If the same circular conversation was occurring in there, then yes.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by calgarygeologist

Do you post this same nonsense in the Ukraine discussion?

Ukraine is solved, though. Every knows how to stop that. It's 100% one side. This, though? No one has a clue.

[calgarygeologist]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

If the same circular conversation was occurring in there, then yes.

You haven't contributed anything to this discussion anyways so why keep coming back? You can avoid the conversation if it bothers you by not clicking the link. If you want info on what is happening there are multitudes of sources on the internet that might be able to fill your needs better.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by calgarygeologist

You haven't contributed anything to this discussion anyways so why keep coming back? You can avoid the conversation if it bothers you by not clicking the link. If you want info on what is happening there are multitudes of sources on the internet that might be able to fill your needs better.

thanks tips

[SutterBrother]

Every day there is no ground invasion saves lives on both sides. I hope it continues.

Egypt to now allow humanitarian aid, which is good... but will no doubt also allow some amount of additional ammo to flow to Hamas through smuggling. Which sadly will likely result in additional attacks, and a corresponding ground invasion.

Going to get messier before it gets better. Not that it's ever going to get "better".

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

You guys are just brutal, seriously.

Why don't you help explain why it mattered how Hamas murdered babies and compare that to how Hamas blamed Israel for a rocket attack that murdered 500 people and everyone seems to still believe it - even though it did not happen.

The specificity of that type of killing mattered to people when it happened, and was cited by multiple posters as the difference between Israel and Hamas killing babies (as in, “Israel drops bombs that kills babies, but that isn’t the same as beheading a baby”). Why did it matter then when it was “true” if it doesn’t matter now that we don’t know if it was?

The truth matters, and while it doesn’t ultimately matter if spreading this kind of unverified info hurts Hamas’ reputation (because it’s terrible and nobody cares about protecting their reputation), it does matter if people are going to get on top of the soapbox and wax poetic about believing unverified information. Because that’s ultimately a forgivable thing, or it isn’t, and if we’re saying it’s unforgivable and actually has some connection to hate for Israel… well, the most pro-Israel people have done it too, so it doesn’t actually hold.

Since we’ve already established and discussed the moral difference in types of killing ad nauseam in this thread, it probably does matter. If the morality of Israel’s response is going to be justified by the barbarism of Hamas’ actions, the level of barbarism does matter.

And here’s this, for whatever it’s worth:

So, given that infants were indeed among victims killed in the violent attack, why does it matter if they died by beheadings or another way? The alleged beheadings have been a focus of media attention, appearing in headlines and viral posts, and have been repeated by politicians at the highest levels of government. When Biden made the claim, he called in the same statement for additional military support for Israel, aiding an army that has already carried out retaliatory attacks against civilians in Gaza—a region that faces a humanitarian crisis after relentless bombardment from Israel.

People should be wary of claims that echo Islamophobic rhetoric, or statements that compare the violence in Kfar Aza to “ISIS-style” killings — i.e., beheadings that have taken place in a different context and were committed by a different group. Such rumors that emphasize specific, unverified acts of brutality against infants and that attempt to connect them to patterns of violence carried out by unconnected Islamist groups have the potential to become dangerous propaganda

https://www.snopes.com/news/2023/10/...aded-by-hamas/

[belsarius]

Why can't I be both anti-Hamas and anti-Israel? They both suck pretty hard.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by belsarius

Why can't I be both anti-Hamas and anti-Israel? They both suck pretty hard.

I think you can be.

I think you can be exasperated with how both of them approach this situation.

Each party does things that point to them not really wanting peace.

It is frustrating as ####.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

The specificity of that type of killing mattered to people when it happened, and was cited by multiple posters as the difference between Israel and Hamas killing babies (as in, “Israel drops bombs that kills babies, but that isn’t the same as beheading a baby”). Why did it matter then when it was “true” if it doesn’t matter now that we don’t know if it was?

It matters, because beheading babies is worse than simply murdering them. It denotes a level of barbarism that's particularly sensational and that's why it was noted in every headline.

... But it's not, you know, THAT much worse. The kids are still dead either way.

And you know exactly what the difference was that was being referred to between Hamas beheading a baby and Israel dropping a bomb that kills babies - it's the same difference between collateral damage and intentional killing for its own that throughout the entire thread you've said everyone understands and nobody disputes. And that doesn't change whether Hamas beheads its victim, or shoots them, or blows them up with a bomb or rocket, or any other method of direct and intentional murder. Why write this post in a way that suggests that line doesn't exist?

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Red Slinger

^ Yes, if only everyone behaved in such a balanced, nuanced way as this, surely we would have peace on Earth in no time.

I don't think its much to ask for people, organizations and governments to admit to lying and correct what they said.

Look, our foreign minister still hasn't made a correction.

https://twitter.com/user/status/1714394629527781705

[2Stonedbirds]

So we have this cat, George. He's about 19 years old, lost a lot of weight, lost some teeth, has declined from his prime but still gets the zoomies and loves being petted while he purrs beside me on the couch. Eats and drinks well.

The wife and I have been closely watching him for further decline, because it's not fair for an animal to suffer from the effects of body failure due to age.

We don't want to, but soon we will have to make the call for the vet to euthanize poor ol George.

Now on one hand, we could give him the pink juice, or save a few bucks and knock his skull cap off with a claw hammer, splattering feline brain matter all over hell.

The issue isn't how he dies, just that he's dead yanno. Brilliant logic.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

The specificity of that type of killing mattered to people when it happened, and was cited by multiple posters as the difference between Israel and Hamas killing babies (as in, “Israel drops bombs that kills babies, but that isn’t the same as beheading a baby”). Why did it matter then when it was “true” if it doesn’t matter now that we don’t know if it was?

The truth matters, and while it doesn’t ultimately matter if spreading this kind of unverified info hurts Hamas’ reputation (because it’s terrible and nobody cares about protecting their reputation), it does matter if people are going to get on top of the soapbox and wax poetic about believing unverified information. Because that’s ultimately a forgivable thing, or it isn’t, and if we’re saying it’s unforgivable and actually has some connection to hate for Israel… well, the most pro-Israel people have done it too, so it doesn’t actually hold.

Since we’ve already established and discussed the moral difference in types of killing ad nauseam in this thread, it probably does matter. If the morality of Israel’s response is going to be justified by the barbarism of Hamas’ actions, the level of barbarism does matter.

And here’s this, for whatever it’s worth:


https://www.snopes.com/news/2023/10/...aded-by-hamas/

There's no doubt that Hamas was going door to door and killing all civilians, including babies. Whether they stopped to behead anyone or simply just shot them and burned them alive, is really not all that important.

There remains a very large moral difference between the two military forces.

It was also never the Israeli government that stated that 40 babies had been beheaded. What happened, was soldiers stating that 40 babies had been killed and other evidence of beheadings. Reporters then misinterpreted that as 40 babies beheaded.

Meanwhile Hamas, and various other Palestinian authorities in Gaza, stated that an Israeli rocket leveled the hospital and killed 500 people. None of these claims were true. It wasn't an Israeli rocket. The hospital wasn't leveled. 500 people did not die.

There's also, for some inexplicable debate, continuing debate in the press about what "really happened" at the hospital bombing. Much of this debate will be interpreted as Israel being responsible, which is actually fueling anti-Israeli and anti-Jewish violence across the world.

Did the specific cause of death of the infants affect the Israeli response? Highly unlikely, Israel, after the attacks, was going to take out Hamas.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

It matters, because beheading babies is worse than simply murdering them. It denotes a level of barbarism that's particularly sensational and that's why it was noted in every headline.

... But it's not, you know, THAT much worse. The kids are still dead either way.

And you know exactly what the difference was that was being referred to between Hamas beheading a baby and Israel dropping a bomb that kills babies - it's the same difference between collateral damage and intentional killing for its own that throughout the entire thread you've said everyone understands and nobody disputes. And that doesn't change whether Hamas beheads its victim, or shoots them, or blows them up with a bomb or rocket, or any other method of direct and intentional murder. Why write this post in a way that suggests that line doesn't exist?

Going door to door and killing civilian families hiding in bomb shelters is not collateral damage. Opening fire on young people at a music festival while they run for their lives is not collateral damage.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by activeStick

I think this is a very fair post and you're correct, some on each side are dug in and once "news" comes out, it doesn't matter later if it needs to be (and subsequently is) corrected.

The same thing happened at the start of the war when the west was reporting "40 beheaded babies". People on this forum were outraged (rightly so), Hamas was quick to deny they did it, but nobody believed them because they're on the other side and "reputable sources" for those in the west such as CNN, MSNBC, etc. took the story and ran with it. In fact, Joe Biden even said he never imagined he'd ever see photos of beheaded babies suggesting he saw photo evidence.

"See!! We all knew they were the bad ones!!"

But then it was verified that it was all fake news. The WH walked back Biden's statements and some news outlets walked back their earlier claims, while others just left it. And similar to your example, online and on this very board, some continued to bring up the 40 beheaded babies, just because.

And in the end, it just keeps the hate and anger going. Palestinians lives are not equivalent to other human lives (we feel this way by referring to them as animals that live in raw sewage). Sad to watch happen, but not surprising.

Not even remotely the same thing.

Hamas by all accounts tortured, raped and murdered all kinds of people, including babies. I get that the beheading thing wasn't ever verified, but if you think this is an equal comparison, you are delusional.

And btw, if you kill babies people will be outraged, and rightly so, even if you didn't 'behead' them.

But nice try.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by blankall

There's no doubt that Hamas was going door to door and killing all civilians, including babies. Whether they stopped to behead anyone or simply just shot them and burned them alive, is really not all that important.

There remains a very large moral difference between the two military forces.

It was also never the Israeli government that stated that 40 babies had been beheaded. What happened, was soldiers stating that 40 babies had been killed and other evidence of beheadings. Reporters then misinterpreted that as 40 babies beheaded.

Meanwhile Hamas, and various other Palestinian authorities in Gaza, stated that an Israeli rocket leveled the hospital and killed 500 people. None of these claims were true. It wasn't an Israeli rocket. The hospital wasn't leveled. 500 people did not die.

There's also, for some inexplicable debate, continuing debate in the press about what "really happened" at the hospital bombing. Much of this debate will be interpreted as Israel being responsible, which is actually fueling anti-Israeli and anti-Jewish violence across the world.

Did the specific cause of death of the infants affect the Israeli response? Highly unlikely, Israel, after the attacks, was going to take out Hamas.

This is exactly the problem here.

The 'well they didn't actually behead the babies' group doesn't believe that there is a moral difference betweeen the two sides.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Azure

I don't think its much to ask for people, organizations and governments to admit to lying and correct what they said.

Look, our foreign minister still hasn't made a correction.

https://twitter.com/user/status/1714394629527781705

What needs to be corrected? She's saying whoever was responsible did a really bad thing. Just because you read it as saying Israel, it is not. That's the great thing about waiting for facts befroe apportioning blame.