Windows 7: More disapointing as the days go on

[I-Hate-Hulse]

Sigh - I know I shouldn't wade into this sewage lagoon of a thread, but since the 27" iMac seems to have painted as some sort of value king...I'm always up for a cheapskate challenge....

The first thing to note that when considering items from the PC world, SALE prices should be considered. I know those are four letters that are forieign to Apple users, unless it's some refurb item or discontinued.

First the vaunted 27" IPS Apple monitor. Agreed, where there are lots of 24" IPS monitors, not so much for 27". So forget that, how about a 30" IPS monitor? As the ladies will tell you, 3" is a lot, and it's even in Black.... 2560x1600 resolution, making 27" suddenly a little flaccid.

Dell 3007WFP-HC - Currently $1,099, but on sale it has been as low as $899.

Next, Dell also has a few great deals on i5 in their Vostro line right , so lets go i5 vs i5.

Dell 3007WFP-HC - $899 from above

Vostro 430 - $749

Genuine Windows® 7 Home Premium, with Media, 32-bit, English
Intel® Core™ i5-750 (2.66GHz 8MB L3 Cache)
No Pre-installed Productivity Software
500GB Serial ATA Hard Drive (7200RPM) w/DataBurst Cache™
4GB Dual Channel DDR3 SDRAM 1333MHz - 2DIMMs
512MB ATI Radeon™ HD 4350 (DVI, VGA, HDMI)
Single Drive: 16X (DVD+/-RW) Burner Drive
Integrated 5.1 Channel Audio
No IEEE 1394a Adapter Selected
No Modem Option
No Dell 19-in-1 Media Card Reader Selected
Dell QuietKey Keyboard
No Monitor
Dell USB Optical Mouse

A few things are missing from this vs the Mac. So lets toss in a few more things.
$50 - Wireless KB/Mouse
$20 Media Card Reader
$20 for a Dell monitor speaker bar
$65 Wireless N Card
$50 Webcam

Total Price: $1,853 if you assume a sale price on the monitor. I'll concede $1,953 for argument's sake that $899 is a rare deal (though we all know DoD sales are on ever few weeks)

Now, lets look at the 27" Mac....

27" (viewable) LED-backlit widescreen TFT active-matrix LCD display with IPS technology and 2560 by 1440 pixel resolution
Core 2 Quad i5 @ 2.66GHz (dynamically boostable to 3.2GHz)
4GB DDR3 @ 1066Mhz
1TB (1000GB) HD
ATI Radeon HD 4850 graphics processor with 512MB of GDDR3 memory
Slot-loading 8x SuperDrive (DVD±R DL/DVD±RW/CD-RW)
Built-in iSight Camera
Built-in mic
One FireWire 800 port; 7 watts
Four USB 2.0 ports
SD card slot
Built-in AirPort Extreme 802.11n Wi-Fi wireless networking
Built-in Bluetooth 2.1 + EDR
Built-in 10/100/1000BASE-T Gigabit Ethernet
Built-in stereo speakers
Two internal 17-watt high-efficiency amplifiers
Headphone/optical digital audio output (minijack)
Audio line in/optical digital audio input (minijack)
Apple Magic Mouse with Multi-Touch technology
Apple Wireless Keyboard

Price: $2099

The 30" monitor of course now leaves us with an (pardon the pun) Oranges to Apples comparison. As anyone know who's shopped for an LCD monitor or TV, price rises exponentially from 27" to 30". Furthermore, I suspect Fanin80 will come back with the "it's not an all-in-one argument". I can concede that for some people form is an issue, but I'd put it to you that the vast majority of users plunk it down on a non space restricted desk. So lets go function to function and less about form. Otherwise you're implying that people are buying computers strictly on looks....

So there you have it, $1,853 vs $2,099. I emphasize that this isn't a fair comparison given the 30" monitor being that much more expensive than a 27". At the end of the day though, you'll get a comparable system with a superior monitor for ~15% less.

If a user is willing to step down to a very nice 24" U2410 IPS monitor from Dell ($500), heck we're looking at $1,454, a 44% difference.

[Red]

Originally Posted by BlackEleven

How are the Mac components better? Saying they're "very high-end, performance grade" means what exactly? For someone harping on other people earlier for not providing specs, this seems a bit hypocritical to me.



Here's you original statement:


You seem to be changing from that position quite a bit. It seems the statement that Macs are not overpriced has turned into the iMac is not overpriced -- as long as you're shopping in Canada.

Price out a Dell commercial grade PC, not a consumer grade one.

http://www1.ca.dell.com/ca/en/enterp...=biz&cs=calca1

[FlamingLonghorn]

Originally Posted by Red

Price out a Dell commercial grade PC, not a consumer grade one.

http://www1.ca.dell.com/ca/en/enterp...=biz&cs=calca1

Actually the Precisions are higher end than Optiplexes and are commercial grade. Precisions are also used in the film industry and were used by the special effects/animation teams for Hulk, Shrek, Monsters Inc, etc... Precision vs. Mac Pro is a very apt comparison...

[Cliche]

Originally Posted by I-Hate-Hulse

Dell 3007WFP-HC - Currently $1,099, but on sale it has been as low as $899.

Next, Dell also has a few great deals on i5 in their Vostro line right , so lets go i5 vs i5.



So there you have it, $1,853 vs $2,099. I emphasize that this isn't a fair comparison given the 30" monitor being that much more expensive than a 27". At the end of the day though, you'll get a comparable system with a superior monitor for ~15% less.

If a user is willing to step down to a very nice 24" U2410 IPS monitor from Dell ($500), heck we're looking at $1,454, a 44% difference.

Just to nitpick, that vostro has a ati 4350 video card, which is an entry level video card, which for the exercises of most people would be very sufficient, but in a head to head gaming test (very specific sure, but one that others will pick up) would lose out badly to the 4850 that's in the mac.

[Red]

Originally Posted by Cliche

Just to nitpick, that vostro has a ati 4350 video card, which is an entry level video card, which for the exercises of most people would be very sufficient, but in a head to head gaming test (very specific sure, but one that others will pick up) would lose out badly to the 4850 that's in the mac.

Also I wonder if the speakers were incuded (monitor does not have speakers) along with a mouse, keyboard and OS. Common ommisions that can add hundreds of dollars.

I don't see how this Dell is a better value than that MAC. Maybe you save couple of dollars, but that's about it. Big deal. Mac buyers will enjoy a neat setup with no speaker, mouse, keyboard cables/wireless adapters etc for a slightly higher price.

[I-Hate-Hulse]

Originally Posted by Cliche

Just to nitpick, that vostro has a ati 4350 video card, which is an entry level video card, which for the exercises of most people would be very sufficient, but in a head to head gaming test (very specific sure, but one that others will pick up) would lose out badly to the 4850 that's in the mac.

Fair point. Add another $100 or so bucks for the Dell to get it up to 9800GT standard, about a 11K 3dMark2006 score I figure. (sidebar - I really hate ATI/Nvidia model naming conventions). The difference in price tightens up, but the price difference in 27" vs 30" is still there.

[Red]

Originally Posted by I-Hate-Hulse

Fair point. Add another $100 or so bucks for the Dell to get it up to 9800GT standard (sidebar - I really hate ATI/Nvidia model naming conventions). The difference in price tightens up, but the price difference in 27" vs 30" is still there.

Is the 30" a LED like the mac?

[I-Hate-Hulse]

Originally Posted by Red

Also I wonder if the speakers were incuded (monitor does not have speakers) along with a mouse, keyboard and OS. Common ommisions that can add hundreds of dollars.

I don't see how this Dell is a better value than that MAC. Maybe you save couple of dollars, but that's about it. Big deal. Mac buyers will enjoy a neat setup with no speaker, mouse, keyboard cables/wireless adapters etc for a slightly higher price.

Yep, speaker bar and wireless kb/mouse are in there, look closer.

Going from a 27" to 30" monitor doesn't represent value?

LED difference is grasping at straws - power consumption is not an issue on desktops, and just like Kim Kardashian, she takes the extra 3" anytime.

[Red]

Originally Posted by I-Hate-Hulse

Yep, speaker bar and wireless kb/mouse are in there, look closer.

Going from a 27" to 30" monitor doesn't represent value?

LED difference is grasping at straws - power consumption is not an issue on desktops, and just like Kim Kardashian, she takes the extra 3" anytime.

LED is not grasping. It is the newest and best display technology available. You pay a premium for that. In fact Dell doesn't even offer it.

I fail to see where the PC is such better value. At best they are of equal value. So the question is, do you want a PC with a tower and the mess from all the cables or do you want an iMac that has only the power cord to connect? Not going to debate about the safety net of having OS X etc.

[I-Hate-Hulse]

Ohhh Red, I'm not even going to get into the sidebars of LED vs prettiness of computers with you since that wasn't the point of my post... the "superiority" of Mac vs PC wasn't the point of this post, nor is it Fanin80's cause célèbre in this thread.

Fanin80's challenge was this:

Secondly, I know you can build cheap PCs. I do it myself all the time. You can't build a PC with the same specs as an iMac for less than what the iMac sells for. This is the ONLY point I have tried to make.

I believe that challenge has been met, though as I said before, much of the difference comes from the change in value from a 27" to 30" monitor. And this is without going to cheaper FutureShop specials and Tier 2 vendors.....

The truth is - NEITHER of these iMac / Dell configurations represent good VALUE. 27" panels are just too much for what they are. I'd say stuff in the 22"-24" range (both Mac and PC) represent better value.

[Rathji]

Originally Posted by Red

LED is not grasping. It is the newest and best display technology available. You pay a premium for that. In fact Dell doesn't even offer it.

I fail to see where the PC is such better value. At best they are of equal value. So the question is, do you want a PC with a tower and the mess from all the cables or do you want an iMac that has only the power cord to connect? Not going to debate about the safety net of having OS X etc.

So how is this challenge fair if it is 100% impossible to create an identical product, not even comparing the cost of it to the iMac? This would be like saying well Dell wins because you can't even get a 30 inch ips monitor.

If you want to make the 'value' comparison, you either need to have an idenitcal set of products to be compared or be flexible on the products themselves.

Given the challenge, I think he did a pretty good job of meeting it. Considering the high end computer market is where Mac does have a real advantage, I thought it would have been impossible to match the iMac for the same price.

Try reversing the challenge for a minute and provide a Mac that does only what an average user (of any category) needs for the cost of a PC? I suspect that the only time Mac would come out ahead would be in situations where the OS is the deciding factor, rather than the hardware.

Macs are great, and I think anyone who tries to claim Windows is universally better than OSX is on crack, but they are overkill for what most people need in terms of the hardware 'quality' and the cost incurred for it.

Most computers are out of date before they are 2 years old, so in all likely hood you are not going to wear out your <insert hardware component> before you are likely going to be looking to buy a new system. In the case of the iMac discussed here, I would rather have a few cables, a tower etc and be able to move my monitor, HDD, Optical drives etc to my new system rather than coughing up for new ones in an all-in-one system.

[Shazam]

Just get what you want.

Christ, it's a damn OS. How many of us sit there and fiddle with the Control Panel for hours on end?

[Igottago]

Originally Posted by Shazam

Just get what you want.

Christ, it's a damn OS. How many of us sit there and fiddle with the Control Panel for hours on end?

Control Panel?? Pffft...System Preferences is where its at.

[FanIn80]

Originally Posted by I-Hate-Hulse

Sigh - I know I shouldn't wade into this sewage lagoon of a thread, but since the 27" iMac seems to have painted as some sort of value king...I'm always up for a cheapskate challenge....

The first thing to note that when considering items from the PC world, SALE prices should be considered. I know those are four letters that are forieign to Apple users, unless it's some refurb item or discontinued.

First the vaunted 27" IPS Apple monitor. Agreed, where there are lots of 24" IPS monitors, not so much for 27". So forget that, how about a 30" IPS monitor? As the ladies will tell you, 3" is a lot, and it's even in Black.... 2560x1600 resolution, making 27" suddenly a little flaccid.

Dell 3007WFP-HC - Currently $1,099, but on sale it has been as low as $899.

Next, Dell also has a few great deals on i5 in their Vostro line right , so lets go i5 vs i5.


Now, lets look at the 27" Mac....

The 30" monitor of course now leaves us with an (pardon the pun) Oranges to Apples comparison. As anyone know who's shopped for an LCD monitor or TV, price rises exponentially from 27" to 30". Furthermore, I suspect Fanin80 will come back with the "it's not an all-in-one argument". I can concede that for some people form is an issue, but I'd put it to you that the vast majority of users plunk it down on a non space restricted desk. So lets go function to function and less about form. Otherwise you're implying that people are buying computers strictly on looks....

So there you have it, $1,853 vs $2,099. I emphasize that this isn't a fair comparison given the 30" monitor being that much more expensive than a 27". At the end of the day though, you'll get a comparable system with a superior monitor for ~15% less.

If a user is willing to step down to a very nice 24" U2410 IPS monitor from Dell ($500), heck we're looking at $1,454, a 44% difference.

Congratulations!

12 pages of bickering back and forth, and the United PC Users Collective Front finally found ONE PC that shares the same specs and low and behold, it's only $50 cheaper...

- You gain 3" of screen size, but you sacrifice a much cleaner and brighter picture by giving up the LED backlighting.
- You also give up the spacial aesthetics of the all-in-one system.
- And you give up the Multi-Touch Mouse, which I know won't matter to any PC user since they have no clue how nice Multi-Touch really is.

When it's all said and done, I would gladly take that trade off. What's $50 when you're already spending $2000?

/thread


Edit: Actually, I take all that back. I just re-read what you posted, and looked at the links. There are discrepancies:

1. First of all the monitor is not 899 right now, it's 1099. I don't care what it was 2 months ago, you can't build it right now for that price. So no, we're not "assuming the sale price."
2. The specs you posted only have a 500GB drive, while the 27" iMac has a 1TB drive. So, I selected the system you posted and... low and behold... Dell wants a whopping $350 to upgrade that drive to a 1TB 7200RPM to match the iMac.
3. The video card isn't even remotely comparable to the one in the iMac, so that's another $100.
4. You didn't add Bluetooth, which is another $50.

Final price, using your system...

Base Tower: $750
Upgrades you mentioned: $205
Upgrades you didn't mention: $500
Monitor at CURRENT price: $1099

Total: $2554

Translation: I still win.

[FanIn80]

At the end of the day though, you'll get a comparable system with a superior monitor for ~15% less.

As far as the iMac is concerned, this still has not been proven.

Lots of attempts, but people keep trying to use American prices or they blatantly leave out important items... or (in your case) accidentally forget certain important upgrades, or try to assume prices that are no longer in effect.

This is actually pretty fun! (Muwahaha!)

[HPLovecraft]

I like my good ol' Windows XP, myself. I reverted back to it twice now.

Originally Posted by FanIn80

As far as the iMac is concerned, this still has not been proven.

Lots of attempts, but people keep trying to use American prices or they blatantly leave out important items... or (in your case) accidentally forget certain important upgrades, or try to assume prices that are no longer in effect.

This is actually pretty fun! (Muwahaha!)

You still fail to answer several glaring issues.... scroll back and have a look.

If you're going to call out video cards and hard drives, i am going to call out the 27" to 30" upgrade. That's a huge credit.

I win. (Actually, I-Hate-Hulse wins).

[FanIn80]

Originally Posted by Bent Wookie

You still fail to answer several glaring issues.... scroll back and have a look.

If you're going to call out video cards and hard drives, i am going to call out the 27" to 30" upgrade. That's a huge credit.

I win. (Actually, I-Hate-Hulse wins).

The monitor is a trade-off, as I've already mentioned. Maybe you've never had the pleasure of using an LED-backlit panel, but I (and most other Mac users) have, and I would gladly give up the 3" of screen space for the gained quality of the LED backlighting.

Re-read my response to him, it's all there in black and white.

Also, I didn't contest the monitor in the first place. I only contested him trying to use a $200 cheaper price from an old sale that is no longer in effect.

I'm more than willing to allow that monitor to be used, but at the CURRENT price of $1099.

(If you go allllll the way back to the very beginning of this mess, you'll see that I even said that the screen is going to be at least $1000.)

[dobbles]

you want to know what is awesome? that fanin80 has managed to hinge the entire argument of applenot being overpriced on this 1 machine. here's the sad thing. i could go out and pick some parts and put together a nice rig whether it be low end, middle range, or even high end, and then demand fanin80 match its specs. i would almost guarantee he couldn't do it. why? because with apple you get what they give you.

while we have all been trying to match the specifics of the imac in order to give fanin80 as little to complain about as possible, we are overlooking the fact that the imac might not be maximized properly. perhaps i could find an nvidia card that is superior to the ATI and is cheaper. who says that the i5 processor is the best. an argument could be made that a regular quad core offers more band for the buck. or maybe an i7 would be a better fit.

this whole thing is very stupid. fanin80 will keep trolling no matter what. at first it was that the monitor didn't have IPS. then after that was solved, it was the fact that it wasn't in all in one. then after that it was the fact that it wasn't LED. it is like retail stores that offer price patching. in order to avoid ever having to worry about it, chains now have manufacturers make them special units. then they are all technically selling different models. and thats what is going on here. we are all trying to match the absolute specifics of the imac.

the basic claim is that apple is overpriced. the counter argument by fanin80 is that this specific imac is cheaper. however i would argue thats still not the case. the guys of the computer such as processor, ram, hard drive, motherboard can all be assembled very easily for much less. and even nice IPS monitors can be bought for much less. but instead we get these straw mans about how it isn't an exact match. whats next? it doesn't count because we dont have an apple logo on it?



p.s. - drop the stupid american prices bit. it was an honest mistake made by someone WHO IS AMERICAN. when i started looking i never even thought about the exchange rate. and it had NOTHING to do with my comparison. the imac was $100 cheaper for american customers, but still way more expensive than the stuff i priced. also, you were quick to dismis my monitor because it was 24" yet you totally ignore the other guys build that was 30" so 3" is important when it helps your cause but not when it works against?

Holy crap, that $350 HD upgrade has to be a typo on Dell's part. That is like a $40 one on any other system. Maybe it's suppose to say $35?