Landover Baptist Pastor Preaches To Atheists

[photon]

Originally Posted by flames85

the one thing that always bothers me is why Christians have to always prove that God exists. never that atheists have to prove God doesn't.

As has been said the whoever makes the claim ("God exists") is the one that has to support their claim. I can claim that Iggy just got traded to the Ducks, but unless I support that claim no one will listen to me.

An atheist isn't saying a religious person shouldn't be allowed to believe in God, but if they're going to discuss it with them then that's going to be an initial point of contention; belief without evidence.

I believe there will never be proof that he existed or didn't exist. It will always boil down to Faith.

Personally, I agree. It's a matter of faith; and if it was left at that again atheists would mostly disagree but leave well enough alone.

But it's not usually left at that because when people start to question their faith they try to justify it with proof, so they come up with all kinds of things about how the Bible is unique and proves it's inspired, or that history proves Jesus was divine, or that there's proof of a flood or whatever. That's where the friction starts, because all these claims are made that AREN'T a matter of faith, they're matters of reality, so other people who don't like untruths being spread fight back.

As an aside, a question I've asked before, is why is it a matter of just faith? God supposedly intervened directly in human affairs before. If you're on your way to visit your family and you find out that Sodom and Gomorrah got blown away by God, you don't need faith, that's proof. Jesus performed miracles, God did things all the time to demonstrate His power.. but today we're left with no proof only faith. Paul got knocked off his horse and blinded, Peter got to walk on water, some people get special treatment and can have proof given to them, while others can't. Why?

Slightly off topic... i always wondered why atheists celebrate Christmas/Easter? anyone care to answer that for me?

Atheists are still part of the culture, and Christianity is a huge influence on our culture. Appreciating the history behind a holiday while celebrating it might be one reason. Respect for those that celebrate it might be another.

Originally Posted by Azure

Again, there is nothing wrong with the Gospel of Thomas. I find it every way as interesting as the Bible, but personally I feel the Bible/NT was put together to focus on a single point. The birth, teachings, and death of Jesus Christ, and how it effects Christians.

Adding the Gospel of Thomas would have been straying off topic, and the quote above clearly points out the difference, not in teaching or theology, but in the content between what Thomas supposedly wrote, and what the 4 main gospels contain.

I'm sure there are other writings though that do go further in disagreeing with the eventual doctrine of Christianity, I just can't remember them. I remember him talking about some lists of approved books that also contained references to circulating books that they wanted their congregations to not read.

I did the 24 lecture series on NT history as an audio series though so I have no notes.

If I have some time I'll skim it a bit and see if I can recall them.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by flames85

We exchange gifts because symbolic of the three wise men that brought gifts. It's called "CHRISTmas" for a reason. why don't you exchange gifts on any other day? Christians are celebrating the birth of christ. I don't understand why atheists do the same and don't believe in christ.

Most, if not all of us, grew up with some lipservice paid to one Christian sect or another and we got used to giving and receiving presents and eating turkey. Why stop now? It's fun.

And as has been pointed out numerous times, a lot of the trappings of Christmas (including the actual date) is pulled from older traditions. If you are a Christian, why are you doing these Pagan things?

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by flames85

How do you know he isn't real? Where is your proof?

Good lord.

[photon]

Originally Posted by flames85

How do you know he isn't real? Where is your proof?

Do you believe in the invisible dragon in my garage? No? How do you know he isn't real? Where is your proof?

It's the exact same logic.

[Schultzie]

Originally Posted by flames85

Help me out here i can't find what your mean?

You asked "why do Christians have to always prove that God exists? never that atheists have to prove God doesn't."

The answer to your question is because the burden of proof rests on the shoulders of the person making the claim.

My example was that I believed that a magical pink elephant with wings lived in the centre of the earth. It could telepathically communicate with everyone on the planet, and even had the power to answer your prayers.

Of course, I should be accountable for coming up with proof to back up this claim. It shouldn't be everyone elses problem to disprove it.

Same thing goes for religion. If you want to believe that there's a magical guy living in the clouds, fine. But the burden of proof rests on your shoulders. YOU are responsible for providing evidence to substantiate the claim.

[flames85]

Originally Posted by photon

Do you believe in the invisible dragon in my garage? No? How do you know he isn't real? Where is your proof?

It's the exact same logic.

No its not, stop being so close minded. There actually is proof God does exist, its just whether you chose to believe?

[photon]

Originally Posted by flames85

No its not, stop being so close minded. There actually is proof God does exist, its just whether you chose to believe?

That's what these guys are saying! If there IS proof then that's different. The base position of non-belief is based on there being no evidence.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by flames85

No its not, stop being so close minded. There actually is proof God does exist, its just whether you chose to believe?

What is it? Can you show it to me? You'll be a good Christian and might even make a convert out of me.

[Schultzie]

Originally Posted by flames85

No its not, stop being so close minded. There actually is proof God does exist, its just whether you chose to believe?

Yes, it is.

Just out of curiosity, what proof do you have of god's existance? I'd love to hear it.

[flames85]

Proof that God exists:

- Nature is incredible. Take time to look at anything closely, and you'll have a hard time explaining it as coincidence.

- Historical events that seem to be impossible without supernatural intervention (defeat of the Spanish Armada, rise and fall of kingdoms, etc.)

- Miracles (I've witnessed a few first hand and there are many in the Bible. I'm sure you all have stories about miracles?)

- Prophecy and fulfillment of prophecy (there were over 300 prophecies of Jesus' life, and all came true)

- Humans have an innate desire to worship something (God, money, themselves, etc.), and it seems unlikely that they could invent that.

- Humans seem to have a natural understanding of right and wrong (whether we choose to ignore it is a different story).

- If you look at Jesus' life, you could conclude he was either A) insane, B) a liar, or C) who He claimed to be. Most people would agree that He gave no indication of the first two.

[flames85]

now please support your argument? what proof do you have that he doesn't exist??

[peter12]

nm

[CaptainCrunch]

I look at these arguments, does god exist doesn't he exist, is there proof isn't there proof. I've had my own war with the church for personal reasons, but that doesn't mean that I don't believe in god, or worship in my own way.

But the proof of god scientifically or otherwise is irrelevant when it comes to anything. Some of you choose to not believe there's a god. You believe in empirical evidence, and the latest from the scientific journals. Others, believe that god exists. Those beliefs are all of the proof that anyone ever needs.

Frankly, I think its insulting to challenge someone's beliefs and faith based on your value systems and vice versa.

Does god exist, if you don't believe it, and you fashion your belief systems around that, good for you, no amount of poof to the contrary is going to change your minds. If you do believe in the god all mighty, then no scientific evidence is going to convince you otherwise, because you have faith that he exists.

[flames85]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

I look at these arguments, does god exist doesn't he exist, is there proof isn't there proof. I've had my own war with the church for personal reasons, but that doesn't mean that I don't believe in god, or worship in my own way.

But the proof of god scientifically or otherwise is irrelevant when it comes to anything. Some of you choose to not believe there's a god. You believe in empirical evidence, and the latest from the scientific journals. Others, believe that god exists. Those beliefs are all of the proof that anyone ever needs.

Frankly, I think its insulting to challenge someone's beliefs and faith based on your value systems and vice versa.

Does god exist, if you don't believe it, and you fashion your belief systems around that, good for you, no amount of poof to the contrary is going to change your minds. If you do believe in the god all mighty, then no scientific evidence is going to convince you otherwise, because you have faith that he exists.

i couldn't agree more with you. there is no person on this earth that can prove to you God exists. You need to find that out within yourself. All we can do is try to help one another understand.

[photon]

Originally Posted by flames85

- Nature is incredible. Take time to look at anything closely, and you'll have a hard time explaining it as coincidence.

That's not evidence, at least not in a scientific sense. It may speak to your heart, but that's not evidence.

- Historical events that seem to be impossible without supernatural intervention (defeat of the Spanish Armada, rise and fall of kingdoms, etc.)

Seeming impossible isn't the same as being impossible.

- Miracles (I've witnessed a few first hand and there are many in the Bible. I'm sure you all have stories about miracles?)

Biblical miracles can't be used as evidence because they're second hand accounts of events that happened decades before the authors wrote about them. Ever play the phone game as a kid? Stories change with the telling? Imagine what happens when trying to write a book based on decades of oral history.

Witnessing miracles might be interesting. What kind of miracles. Is there proof? Video tape, hospital records, that sort of thing?

- Prophecy and fulfillment of prophecy (there were over 300 prophecies of Jesus' life, and all came true)

See the miracles part; it's easy to write things in a way that fulfill prophecies if you go read the prophecies before you write it. (this prophecy thing is a huge topic, but I've yet to see any prophecy and fulfillment that can only be explained by prophecy and fulfillment).

- Humans have an innate desire to worship something (God, money, themselves, etc.), and it seems unlikely that they could invent that.

Argument from personal incredulity; just because you think it's unlikely doesn't mean it is.

- Humans seem to have a natural understanding of right and wrong (whether we choose to ignore it is a different story).

This is only evidence for God if God is the only possible source of this understanding. Society and genetics are also possible sources.

[b]- If you look at Jesus' life, you could conclude he was either A) insane, B) a liar, or C) who He claimed to be. Most people would agree that He gave no indication of the first two.[/quote]

Why are those the only three options? And why would you claim to know enough about Jesus' life to be able to make those the three options? Jesus left no writings of his own.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by flames85

Proof that God exists:

- Nature is incredible. Take time to look at anything closely, and you'll have a hard time explaining it as coincidence.

- Historical events that seem to be impossible without supernatural intervention (defeat of the Spanish Armada, rise and fall of kingdoms, etc.)

- Miracles (I've witnessed a few first hand and there are many in the Bible. I'm sure you all have stories about miracles?)

- Prophecy and fulfillment of prophecy (there were over 300 prophecies of Jesus' life, and all came true)

- Humans have an innate desire to worship something (God, money, themselves, etc.), and it seems unlikely that they could invent that.

- Humans seem to have a natural understanding of right and wrong (whether we choose to ignore it is a different story).

- If you look at Jesus' life, you could conclude he was either A) insane, B) a liar, or C) who He claimed to be. Most people would agree that He gave no indication of the first two.

None of this -- none of it -- is proof of anything more than your imagination.

What does "coincidence" have to do with anything? The Spanish Armada? Come on. I suppose the Flames beating the Red Wings in 2004 is proof that god exists? The actual existence of Jesus is not exactly solid, let alone what his friends thought of him.

[flames85]

Originally Posted by photon

That's not evidence, at least not in a scientific sense. It may speak to your heart, but that's not evidence.



Seeming impossible isn't the same as being impossible.



Biblical miracles can't be used as evidence because they're second hand accounts of events that happened decades before the authors wrote about them. Ever play the phone game as a kid? Stories change with the telling? Imagine what happens when trying to write a book based on decades of oral history.

Witnessing miracles might be interesting. What kind of miracles. Is there proof? Video tape, hospital records, that sort of thing?



See the miracles part; it's easy to write things in a way that fulfill prophecies if you go read the prophecies before you write it. (this prophecy thing is a huge topic, but I've yet to see any prophecy and fulfillment that can only be explained by prophecy and fulfillment).



Argument from personal incredulity; just because you think it's unlikely doesn't mean it is.



This is only evidence for God if God is the only possible source of this understanding. Society and genetics are also possible sources.

[b]- If you look at Jesus' life, you could conclude he was either A) insane, B) a liar, or C) who He claimed to be. Most people would agree that He gave no indication of the first two.

Why are those the only three options? And why would you claim to know enough about Jesus' life to be able to make those the three options? Jesus left no writings of his own.[/quote]

it's only proof if you want to believe. try it.
you have never witnessed something you thought to be a miracle?

[photon]

Originally Posted by flames85

now please support your argument? what proof do you have that he doesn't exist??

You made the claim, and then you provided some of your evidences... The next step is to examine the evidence and see if it actually is real evidence.

Maybe we should define evidence first.. I'm talking about evidence from an empirical or scientific point of view.

If I say I have an invisible dragon in my garage, that's not evidence. If someone who I tell writes a book about it, that's not evidence. If I put flour down on the floor and you see footprints, that's evidence (though you'd have to make sure they aren't faked in some way). That's what we're getting at.

[flames85]

Originally Posted by photon

You made the claim, and then you provided some of your evidences... The next step is to examine the evidence and see if it actually is real evidence.

Maybe we should define evidence first.. I'm talking about evidence from an empirical or scientific point of view.

If I say I have an invisible dragon in my garage, that's not evidence. If someone who I tell writes a book about it, that's not evidence. If I put flour down on the floor and you see footprints, that's evidence (though you'd have to make sure they aren't faked in some way). That's what we're getting at.

look around you this is all evidence that God exists. how do you explain how we all came to be?

[Schultzie]

Originally Posted by flames85

Proof that God exists:

- Nature is incredible. Take time to look at anything closely, and you'll have a hard time explaining it as coincidence.

- Historical events that seem to be impossible without supernatural intervention (defeat of the Spanish Armada, rise and fall of kingdoms, etc.)

- Miracles (I've witnessed a few first hand and there are many in the Bible. I'm sure you all have stories about miracles?)

- Prophecy and fulfillment of prophecy (there were over 300 prophecies of Jesus' life, and all came true)

- Humans have an innate desire to worship something (God, money, themselves, etc.), and it seems unlikely that they could invent that.

- Humans seem to have a natural understanding of right and wrong (whether we choose to ignore it is a different story).

- If you look at Jesus' life, you could conclude he was either A) insane, B) a liar, or C) who He claimed to be. Most people would agree that He gave no indication of the first two.

It sounds as though you aren't very familiar with evolution, the big bang, the god gene or morality from an evolutionary standpoint. I suggest you read up on these topics, and I'm sure you'll find your answers.

Could you explain some of the miracles that have happened to you that could be used as evidence for god's existance?