[PGT] The Flames didn't win

[mikephoen]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

No offense but bull.

But to go back to my point, if I don't show up ready to work, I get fired. My manager isn't going to put a lot of time to try and motivate me. He's going to fire me.

This analogy doesn't really work for this situation though. What if you're one of the best in the world at what you do, you have a contract that stipulates you can't be easily fired, and you make many multiples of what your manager does. And he is on a temp contract, and his entire job description is to find ways to get the most out of you and your fellow elite workers.

In that situation, you're not getting fired, he is.

[Cube Inmate]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

No offense but bull.
People are motivated short-term by traditional carrot/stick methodologies but in the long-term they are motivated by deeper items

Autonomy
Purpose
Mastery

The strong "systems" coaching is the antithesis of "autonomy."

There are two opposite approaches to managing for results: In one approach, you manage the processes so carefully that you could plug a monkey into the job and still get the results you need. That's the "auto assembly line" model. In the opposite, you focus on getting the best employees and *removing* process as much as possible. That's the "tech startup" model.

Those are the extremes; you need a balance. But from what I've heard of GG's coaching, and what I've seen on the ice, it's closer to the assembly line model. There's only one "right" way to do things, and if you don't do it that way you'll get to practice it again until you do. No autonomy. No purpose -- if all they're expected to do is flawlessly execute a flawed system, there's not much you can do ($$$) to make them feel purpose.

[GordonBlue]

Originally Posted by Iggy City

I hope the Dome is empty by the last home game.

We are not the Oilers, we won't accept this garbage show.

it won't be empty. most fans still accept the garbage.

might be some no shows, but those ticket dollars are already in the flames pockets.

until there is no waiting list and a decline in STH, there will be nothing to show the ownership that the garbage isn't tolerated.

[GordonBlue]

Originally Posted by mikephoen

This analogy doesn't really work for this situation though. What if you're one of the best in the world at what you do, you have a contract that stipulates you can't be easily fired, and you make many multiples of what your manager does. And he is on a temp contract, and his entire job description is to find ways to get the most out of you and your fellow elite workers.

In that situation, you're not getting fired, he is.

for me, when a guy is played millions to play a game I expect that to be motivation enough to work as hard as you can and give fair value for your paycheque.

I suppose people are people and regardless of what you make, you'll settle at the level of effort you're inclined to.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by GordonBlue

for me, when a guy is played millions to play a game I expect that to be motivation enough to work as hard as you can and give fair value for your paycheque.

I suppose people are people and regardless of what you make, you'll settle at the level of effort you're inclined to.

Or the level of effort that coach accepts?

[Fan in Exile]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

What does it say about Vingault, Bylsma and Weight that they let their teams get absolutely dominated by this so called “team that lacks commitment and motivation?

We fired nearly 200 shot attempts in the last 2 home games basically doubling up both opponents. That’s effort and commitment right there. Going down 2-0 vs Pittsburgh and then coming back twice against the 2 time defending champs is commitment. We lack skill right now and if this team had a little more finishing ability then we’d be a damn fine team.

I loved the Flames pushback against the Pens. The thing is it started as soon as they were down 2-0, rather than waiting until the 3rd period like against the Isles. And there was a difference in the quality of chances they generated. Gibson saw a lot of pucks but Smith made more big saves than Gibson had to make. It's not accurate to say the Flames came out and outplayed the Isles and just didn't get the bounces. That's the whole problem with GG and his defenders. You can only accept that narrative for so long. Do you not see a pattern here?

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Flames have too many core players who only get excited when they're trying to score. Winning teams are full of core players who are as committed to playing pedal-to-the-metal without the puck as they are with it.

Hamilton with less than 20 minutes of ice last night.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by cannon7

Last night was a classic example of how a CF% can be gamed. 50+ shots, but only a slight margin in terms of real scoring chances. Certainly not 2:1 in terms of legitimate scoring chances. The Flames have lost a lot of games outshooting their opponents 2:1, hmmm....

I would agree that CF% isn't everything. I'm not even a corsi or advanced stats guy, but the Flames internal statistician counted 27 scoring chances for the Flames yesterday. That's how many total shots on goal the Isles had. The Islanders also luckily scored 3 goals and while having just 3 scoring chances.

It could be just as simple as this team doesn't have the shooters to get it done. I mean are we really surprised? Who among the forward group has a cannon of a shot? Ferland? He has 1 goal in 23 games. Frolik? He's got a muffin. Bennett? Muffin. Brouwer? Muffin. We have guys who work hard and generate a lot of shots, but their actually ability to finish is below average.

[Red]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

I would agree that CF% isn't everything. I'm not even a corsi or advanced stats guy, but the Flames internal statistician counted 27 scoring chances for the Flames yesterday. That's how many total shots on goal the Isles had. The Islanders also luckily scored 3 goals and while having just 3 scoring chances.

It could be just as simple as this team doesn't have the shooters to get it done. I mean are we really surprised? Who among the forward group has a cannon of a shot? Ferland? He has 1 goal in 23 games. Frolik? He's got a muffin. Bennett? Muffin. Brouwer? Muffin. We have guys who work hard and generate a lot of shots, but their actually ability to finish is below average.

I like to look at the basics. I saw the Isles with 4 or 5 top notch chances early in the 2nd period. Those chances alone were better than anything the Flames generated all game.

How many odd man rushes did each team had?
Breakaways?
One on ones up close?

I think it was a lot closer that the shot clock alludes to.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by jayswin

That's effort and commitment in a rigid, predictable team system. You think it's all on a lack of finishers, I think we definitely need at least another sniper, but there is so much being left on the table with the talent we have because of the system we use.

If taking 52 shots while only allowing 27 shots to one of the highest scoring teams in the league is rigid, then sign me up. Fact is, we blew a ton of chances yesterday. We hit posts, missed open nets and etc. It's a game of inches and when you don't convert, it'll come back and bite you. Remember when Backlund had that 95% open net on Lundqvist and some how he managed to stop it with his blocker and then NYR went back the other way and Gillies gave up that weak one?

This has happened all year to us. It's the theme of our season. If we had a shooter like Laine than we wouldn't have this problem because he doesn't need a lot of chances to convert. He's a natural sniper. Obviously we're not just going to find a bunch Laine's lying around, but I'm sure we can find something in the middle. Even Treliving, the architect himself admitted this was going to be the biggest concern going into the season.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

If taking 52 shots while only allowing 27 shots to one of the highest scoring teams in the league is rigid, then sign me up.

You are signed up.

[Shazam]

Originally Posted by I_H8_Crawford

AV would be another coach I would be looking out for.

Please sweet Jebus let's get AV. We may never see Brouwer ever again if it happens.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

I think the point is we need that kind of effort and commitment at the start of the game. Islanders are a bad team and so not surprised Flames were ultimately able to dominate them. But spotting even a bad team a big lead is suicide.

Every team wants a good start though. That's what makes the NHL tough, it's a tight league and anyone can win at any point. I mean heck, that Buffalo team we crushed beat Boston and Tampa collectively 4 times this season.

[mikephoen]

Originally Posted by GordonBlue

for me, when a guy is played millions to play a game I expect that to be motivation enough to work as hard as you can and give fair value for your paycheque.

I suppose people are people and regardless of what you make, you'll settle at the level of effort you're inclined to.

I think your second paragraph is correct. What they make doesn't matter. To a person in a third world country, what you or I make would seem like an unbelievable amount, and they would assume we are both motivated to work as hard as possible every day. But odds are we are both at work while posting on CP today, so are we really giving 100% to our jobs to earn our pay? Most likely we're doing what is required and not a lot more, because that is human nature.

[Red]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

If taking 52 shots while only allowing 27 shots to one of the highest scoring teams in the league is rigid, then sign me up. Fact is, we blew a ton of chances yesterday. We hit posts, missed open nets and etc. It's a game of inches and when you don't convert, it'll come back and bite you. Remember when Backlund had that 95% open net on Lundqvist and some how he managed to stop it with his blocker and then NYR went back the other way and Gillies gave up that weak one?

This has happened all year to us. It's the theme of our season. If we had a shooter like Laine than we wouldn't have this problem because he doesn't need a lot of chances to convert. He's a natural sniper. Obviously we're not just going to find a bunch Laine's lying around, but I'm sure we can find something in the middle. Even Treliving, the architect himself admitted this was going to be the biggest concern going into the season.

Laine would probably be a 15 goal guy here because he wouldn't be allowed to play his off-side on the PP under coach Gulutzan.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by Red

Laine would probably be a 15 goal guy here because he wouldn't be allowed to play his off-side on the PP under coach Gulutzan.

So true. Like someone else mentioned there's nothing more frustrating than seeing a Flames star get a cross ice pass that could be one timed in, where instead they have to stop it to turn their body towards the net because our ridiculously rigid policy on player sides.

But hey, advanced stats tells us a high danger shot is a high danger shot!

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

Every team wants a good start though. That's what makes the NHL tough, it's a tight league and anyone can win at any point. I mean heck, that Buffalo team we crushed beat Boston and Tampa collectively 4 times this season.

An average start, or an even start and you win the game last night. That's not asking for too much against the Islanders.

[4X4]

Originally Posted by jayswin

So true. Like someone else mentioned there's nothing more frustrating than seeing a Flames star get a cross ice pass that could be one timed in, where instead they have to stop it to turn their body towards the net because our ridiculously rigid policy on player sides.

But hey, advanced stats tells us a high danger shot is a high danger shot!

Just like when the Flames catch the opposition on a line change and elect to throw the puck backwards to the D instead of taking the zone.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by Fan in Exile

I loved the Flames pushback against the Pens. The thing is it started as soon as they were down 2-0, rather than waiting until the 3rd period like against the Isles. And there was a difference in the quality of chances they generated. Gibson saw a lot of pucks but Smith made more big saves than Gibson had to make. It's not accurate to say the Flames came out and outplayed the Isles and just didn't get the bounces. That's the whole problem with GG and his defenders. You can only accept that narrative for so long. Do you not see a pattern here?

It's the same team that came back on the Pens though. Honestly, if they buried any of the grade A scoring chances that had yesterday and tied it up and won the game in OT, would we talking about how bad our team was yesterday? Brodie, shoots the puck off Gibson's foot instead of the open side of the net, Sam Bennett pulls off a move and buries it into the guys pads and not rebound, Johnny Gaudreau on the doorstep, toe save.

There were glorious chances that our guys couldn't convert on while the Isles fire shots off of feet and a stick and somehow miraculously finds it's way into the net. Honestly, I'll take the efforts against the Isles and the Rangers day in and day out. Our guys aren't dogging it, they're trying hard out there. I can't fault them for their effort and I'm not going to fault the system right now as it's fostering opportunities. The puck just isn't going in.

I'll call this team out and their system when I see us getting outplayed, out chanced and out outworked. Not seeing that right now.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by zamler

I good manager sees potential, some people are diamonds in the rough that need guidance and motivation. Simply expecting people to show up and give their best is lazy management.

What specific players do you think are not motivated on the Flames? Who are these diamond in the roughs?