How much longer do you think the Oilers will be this bad for?

[Tinordi]

Washington was a good example of a rebuild. The signed a bunch of FAs, put a team together to contend, it turned gel and they sold everything off to accumulate youth and picks.

[MrMastodonFarm]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

http://forum.calgarypuck.com/showthr...08#post4108408

So after all that, the Hawks came out of the lock out and signed a big ticket goalie and a top two guy on the blue line. That isn't the example of a team that wanted to rebuild, that is a team (like the Flames) that kept spinning it's wheels and fell face first into a top pick.

The Hawks sucked, they didn't want to suck, they tried not to.

Originally Posted by Tinordi

Washington was a good example of a rebuild. The signed a bunch of FAs, put a team together to contend, it turned gel and they sold everything off to accumulate youth and picks.

So they didn't plan it, right?

They sucked, then sold it off. No team is on top then plans this master rebuild. If the Flames (finally) decide to sell of their players, it won't be a genius move, it will be because they are (finally) pushed into that move. Like the Hawks, like the Oilers and like the Capitals before them.

No team plans to suck. They then suck, accept it and move on.

The Flames suck, they just haven't accepted it yet. Hopefully between now and the deadline (Early April?) they accept that and sell off assets.

Like both of you I have doubts Feaster will do that but if he does it wasn't a plan to rebuild, it was forced upon him by sucking like the Hawks and Capitals.

[Tinordi]

Yes I don't criticize the Flames for not proactively engaging the rebuild. But I am highly critical of them for not recognizing that they sucked. After the first season with Brent it was bordering on obvious that this core, Iginla, Kipper and all were not going to cut it. It's now been 3.5 seasons of not recognizing that a rebuild was necessary. Of course, that's the same criticism of the Oilers too. Their rebuild was more prolonged and painful because they still tried to cobble together a playoff bound roster while it was clear that it needed to be blown up.

Washington, Chicago, Philadelphia, LA, all just bit the bullet and went through the painful moves to their cores to supercharge the rebuilding plan.

By waiting, the Flames have limited how much actually boost they'd get from a rebuild, and will make the process of returning to a contender all that much more uncertain and longer.

[Dr. Doom]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

Why is one not allowed to talk about another team while at the same time being aware of what's happening with the Flames.

The Oilers are one of the more interesting stories in the NHL this season and as the Flames #1 historic rival - they will be of even more interest here.

What's weird is why anyone would object to this thread.

Obviously you haven't heard of the pot calling the kettle black?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_pot...e_kettle_black

... or people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones'?

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_th...hrow_stones%27

.. or maybe the Mote and the Beam?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mote_and_the_Beam

This thread is embarrassing simply put. If an Oiler fan (or any other fan for that matter!) comes on here and sees this thread, they must think it's a joke. Embarrassing like the O'Reilly fiasco. As if we need reason to make ourselves look worse. Bad karma, whatever you want to call it, this Flames organization is heading in a terrible direction - worry about our own house.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by MrMastodonFarm

So after all that, the Hawks came out of the lock out and signed a big ticket goalie and a top two guy on the blue line. That isn't the example of a team that wanted to rebuild, that is a team (like the Flames) that kept spinning it's wheels and fell face first into a top pick.

The Hawks sucked, they didn't want to suck, they tried not to.



So they didn't plan it, right?

They sucked, then sold it off. No team is on top then plans this master rebuild. If the Flames (finally) decide to sell of their players, it won't be a genius move, it will be because they are (finally) pushed into that move. Like the Hawks, like the Oilers and like the Capitals before them.

No team plans to suck. They then suck, accept it and move on.

The Flames suck, they just haven't accepted it yet. Hopefully between now and the deadline (Early April?) they accept that and sell off assets.

Like both of you I have doubts Feaster will do that but if he does it wasn't a plan to rebuild, it was forced upon him by sucking like the Hawks and Capitals.

Signing players in no way negates the other aspects of running a franchise that contribute to rebuilding.

Money is just money. The sign of a rebuilding team is trading players away for picks and prospects.

The sign of a team that is rebuliding isnt what they do in free agency, its what they do with their draft picks and whether they leverage them for immediate success. In a similar vein, teams rebuilding will also make mistakes along the way, sometimes costing picks mistakenly. LA did that with Cloutier, it was a big mistake, but it doesnt negate the other things they did like Gleason and Cammalleri for basically picks or youngsters

44 picks in 4 years. That is twice the amount of picks the flames have made in their last 4 drafts.

[neo45]

The Oilers picks in the last 5 years have been 1st, 1st, 1st, 10th, 12th, and 6th

The Flames have been 14th, 13th, 13th, 20th, 25th, and 18th

So the Flames right now are actually less embarrassing than the Oilers were before they were the worst team in hockey and drafted 1st overall for three years in a row. So all the Flames have to do is not finish last for three years straight and they have won this battle

[MrMastodonFarm]

Well we disagree then Flash. A sign of not rebuilding is going out and signing two big free agents, then finishing near last in the league. A rebuilding team isn't going to shot themselves in the foot that way. If the Flames went out and signed two big ticket players this off seasons people who be floored at why they are doing it when we are rebuilding.

I don't know why you just brush aside signing big money free agents. There are more then one sign of a rebuilding team, or a team spinning it's wheels. The Flames could have a fire sale in the next couple weeks, drafted in the top three, then go out and sign 2-3 free agents who are 30+ years old and you'd be one of the first to wonder what the heck was going on I'd imagine.

By your definition if that happened, they'd still be in rebuild mode. Even though it would be shooting themselves square in the foot.

It's interesting you brought up Cammaleri, a guy the Kings traded after they finished near the bottom of the league and when they were about to draft 2nd overall. Another example of a team trading off after they suck, not some master plan before.

[Yoho]

Originally Posted by neo45

The Oilers picks in the last 5 years have been 1st, 1st, 1st, 10th, 12th, and 6th

The Flames have been 14th, 13th, 13th, 20th, 25th, and 18th

So the Flames right now are actually less embarrassing than the Oilers were before they were the worst team in hockey and drafted 1st overall for three years in a row. So all the Flames have to do is not finish last for three years straight and they have won this battle

Nothing in sport is as old as yesterday's news. When the Oilers start drafting 20th, 25th, 30th overall in th first ound and we are toiling in the single digit 1st rounders I'm pretty sure it will be a one sided debate.


Big if, but we have nothing to be smug about...

[Tinordi]

This thread reminds me of that old thread 3 years ago titled "When WILL the Flames pass the Canucks in the standings?" started by ricardow

3 years later have we ever been ahead of the Canucks after the 12 game mark?

[Robo]

I feel this thread is jinxing us I am seeing way to many similarities between our games and Edmonton since this thread has been started.

[MrMastodonFarm]

Originally Posted by Robo

I feel this thread is jinxing us I am seeing way to many similarities between our games and Edmonton since this thread has been started.

Yeah, no.

[neo45]

Originally Posted by Yoho

Nothing in sport is as old as yesterday's news. When the Oilers start drafting 20th, 25th, 30th overall in th first ound and we are toiling in the single digit 1st rounders I'm pretty sure it will be a one sided debate.


Big if, but we have nothing to be smug about...

I'll stop being smug the day they fire Lowe, until then there is nothing to worry about up north

[TKB]

Originally Posted by neo45

I'll stop being smug the day they fire Lowe, until then there is nothing to worry about up north

I think thats the point these guys are making, you have nothing to be smug about. Your team is terrible and on course for a long suck just like the oilers.

[moon]

Originally Posted by Dr. Doom

This thread is embarrassing simply put. If an Oiler fan (or any other fan for that matter!) comes on here and sees this thread, they must think it's a joke. Embarrassing like the O'Reilly fiasco. As if we need reason to make ourselves look worse. Bad karma, whatever you want to call it, this Flames organization is heading in a terrible direction - worry about our own house.

If there weren't 10+ threads discussing the horrible situation the Flames are in or GT and PGT's talking about the need for change, or multiple proposals of trading away our players then you may have a point but there is plenty of discussion going on here about the Flames and worrying about "our own house."

There is no reason that there can't also be a thread about a historically bad team that is a rival to ours and what the F is going on up there. 3 1st overall picks in a row, a year in which they look to be possibly bottom 5 again and they stick with the same management isn't some situation that happens everyday it is a very odd and unique situation that deserves to be looked at and laughed whether the Flames are 15th or 1st.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by MrMastodonFarm

Well we disagree then Flash. A sign of not rebuilding is going out and signing two big free agents, then finishing near last in the league. A rebuilding team isn't going to shot themselves in the foot that way. If the Flames went out and signed two big ticket players this off seasons people who be floored at why they are doing it when we are rebuilding.

Someone has to make the money. Hawks need to get to the Cap Floor and Aucoin and Bulin helped them do that. Hawks also had good young defensive prospects, but they were not ready to play a significant role and required the steady presence of a big minute two-way defender. This is something I would expect from a franchise like the Flames if they had a stable of solid young defenders.

I don't know why you just brush aside signing big money free agents. There are more then one sign of a rebuilding team, or a team spinning it's wheels. The Flames could have a fire sale in the next couple weeks, drafted in the top three, then go out and sign 2-3 free agents who are 30+ years old and you'd be one of the first to wonder what the heck was going on I'd imagine.

I brush it aside because the money doesn't matter. Free agents are just that, free. They don't have any acquisition cost other than money. Therefore, they are unlikely to be a determinate factor in a rebuild. Teams that are rebuilding display a general plan of acquiring picks instead of using them to bolster the team in the immediate future (win now).

Look at the hawks trade history and find a trade between 2004 and 2007 where they gave up draft picks. They made a no-brainer trade for Havlat which ended up being utter theft. They gave up a 2008 2nd rounder for smolinski and then moved him at the deadline several months later for a 2007 2nd rounder.

That franchise operated for 4 years without dealing draft picks. Can there be a better sign of prioritizing the draft then doing nothing with your draft picks but get more of them for four solid years?

[CsInMyBlood]

Originally Posted by TKB

I think thats the point these guys are making, you have nothing to be smug about. Your team is terrible and on course for a long suck just like the oilers.

Well the Flames have never finished last in the NHL. The Oilers did it THREE years in a row. Until the Flames accomplish being last in the NHL even one time I don't think an Oilers fan can tell us we are horrible and on course for a long suck just like the Oilers.

[Bertuzzied]

Crap it was the reverse karma in this thread. I didnt' come into it till now to laugh at the pathetic Oilers. This was why we lost our past 3 games! hahahaha

We have to laugh long and hard at them now. they wont' be in Edmonton for very much longer.

[MrMastodonFarm]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Someone has to make the money. Hawks need to get to the Cap Floor and Aucoin and Bulin helped them do that. Hawks also had good young defensive prospects, but they were not ready to play a significant role and required the steady presence of a big minute two-way defender. This is something I would expect from a franchise like the Flames if they had a stable of solid young defenders.



I brush it aside because the money doesn't matter. Free agents are just that, free. They don't have any acquisition cost other than money. Therefore, they are unlikely to be a determinate factor in a rebuild. Teams that are rebuilding display a general plan of acquiring picks instead of using them to bolster the team in the immediate future (win now).

Look at the hawks trade history and find a trade between 2004 and 2007 where they gave up draft picks. They made a no-brainer trade for Havlat which ended up being utter theft. They gave up a 2008 2nd rounder for smolinski and then moved him at the deadline several months later for a 2007 2nd rounder.

That franchise operated for 4 years without dealing draft picks. Can there be a better sign of prioritizing the draft then doing nothing with your draft picks but get more of them for four solid years?

Flash, you're getting the issue and my stance totally mixed up. Not once have I said the Hawks never started a rebuild. My stance was that it wasn't some grand design, it was because they sucked, accepted it, and started it. Even after they did that they still did things in determent to it (signing big players) but still sucked and managed to get those big pieces.

Of course through 2004-2007 they sold off and got draft picks. The Hawks finished last in the west in 2004, 2nd last in 2006 and 3rd last in the west in 2007.

So yes, after they sucked they decided to switch gears and sell off assets for picks. I've never been saying they didn't do that. I'm saying it wasn't some grand design beforehand.

If the Flames finally go that route instead of spinning their wheels it won't be because of a master scheme but of finally accepting how bad they are and moving in that direction. You haven't said anything that goes against that.

Yes the Hawks started a rebuild (like the Oilers) but it was because of how god damn bad they were, not a brilliant plan by management.

[Flash Walken]

They finished last in 2004 after trading away a couple of their best players.

Further, they were in that position because of their penny pinching, meddling, ownership.

They made a concerted effort as an organization to go into the 2004 lockout with as much flexibility as possible to best position themselves in the new rules.

A concerted effort. Anticipated the need to be flexible, sold overpayed veteran players for draft picks and continued that process through the resolution of the lockout basically until they won. They were positioned to spend more in free agency because of their steps prior to the lockout and while teams like St.Louis auctioned off their best players to get under the cap, the Hawks were able to be spenders in free agency because of their cap space.

sucking is a by product of trading veterans for picks. Sucking hard like the oilers is as a result of being terrible and not having a plan.

Khabibulin kept them somewhat competitive and a healthy aucoin would have seen them finish slightly higher in the standings (but still top 10). With hindsight, they sucked worse because of injuries, but acting as if they sucked hard for a million years while trying to be good is flat out wrong.

Their lack of playoff success prior to getting kane and toews has much more to do with the Franchise being a wasteland because of ownership than it does any other reason.

It's like pointing to the Islanders as an example of a team who can't rebuild. They don't spend money, either, which is necessary to win.

It took the owner literally dying to pry the franchise out of his cold dead hand.

You're completely ignoring the history that is all contained in my post. They sold off to position themselves prior to an unknown labour dispute, followed a plan of building through the draft, no doubt because it was also cheaper to run a team on young players than top dollar free agents, and stayed true to their plan of continually turning over veteran players in exchange for draft picks.

The Flames are dead last now without having sold anything off. The Hawks finished dead last by continually dealing their players with value, not by holding onto a dead husk of a team, attempting to supplement the team by dealing away picks for ready-now players.

[Walter Reed]

Originally Posted by Tinordi

This thread reminds me of that old thread 3 years ago titled "When WILL the Flames pass the Canucks in the standings?" started by ricardow

3 years later have we ever been ahead of the Canucks after the 12 game mark?

I initiated this thread here in 2010.
Can the Flames avoid the Oilers present fate?
http://forum.calgarypuck.com/showthread.php?t=88031