American Politics 3.0 - Back to Brunch

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by TherapyforGlencross

Fair enough, while I disagree, I feel that I can definitely understand where you’re coming from and agree that not voting, as a republican, is also a vote for Harris. While I hate Trump, I also think it would be inappropriate to base non-voting as a moral indignation rather than an issue with the election system. I still refer to it as apathy, as i view non-voting as defeatism or fine with the status-quo. If it’s defeatism, then I still view it as apathy. A la Russian apathy through voting defeatism.

Thanks for understanding, and I get where you’re coming from as well.

[#-3]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Says the guy who kicked this off by completely ignoring what I said so you could go on your little rant about progressives and then compare the version of me you made up in your head to MAGA.

If you have a claim about a “group of progressives” maybe provide the evidence yourself? Why is it up to anyone else to confirm your own claim?

And why, given that this is the third time I’ve had to slowly explain to you that your rant has little to do with the actual focus on what I was talking about, would I be the one to do it for you?

Go on believing that progressives have never made progress happen and that they’re some nasty cabal banding together to withhold the vote you so deserve. Why should I care? We all like a little crazy once in a while.

I think right now the two biggest things I struggle with are,

1) Harris has to win support but she doesn't have clear policy ideas.
I'd go as far as to say that this is simple regurgitation of a right wing narrative without any investigation, but I would welcome discussion of an area where her campaign has not been clear about where they stand, I think they have been clear and have offered a better answer than Trump on everything.
https://kamalaharris.com/issues/

2) There seems to be a conversation that goes like this
person a - Harris isn't good enough on ____ issue
person b - She's better than Trump
person a - But I want someone better
person b - well you're not going to get someone better, the choices are Harris, Trump or let others decide.
person a - But I want someone better

As you can see while some insults have been thrown back and forth, where is conversation is losing momentum is some people would idealistically like to find the perfect set of options for their unique worldview and set of issues, they are fundamentally unable to answer the question of why they wouldn't offer full throated and genuine support for the person would be categorically better for everything the purport to care about. It leaves others suspicious that the main driver behind the argument isn't a desire for improvement on the issues you say you care about, but some fantastical hope for a perfect world. It is hard to improve when you are working with people are only interested in the ends and not interested in what is required to get there.

The thing is Harris like Biden is a normal politician, if the people who support her tell her they care about an issue she will work on it. Look at Biden, he isn't a climate guy. Decades in government he never made climate part of his value proposition to voters, but in 2020 the climate movement got behind him in the primaries, they supported and worked on his campaign, and he arguably delivered the biggest win they have seen from a single piece of government action. If you are constantly grasping for reasons not to support her, she will find other reachable interest groups and bend her policy towards what they want.

[Strange Brew]

Seems to me a main tenet of the Harris campaign strategy was to shine the spotlight on Trump and all of his major flaws. That doesn't seem to be attracting big numbers of new voters to her side.

The election was hers post convention as the Trump campaign really hasn't done anything special. They tried to define her but I don't think that it has stuck. And she hasn't really defined herself well enough either.

Now I think the Dem's hope comes down to winning the get out the vote effort in enough of the 7 swing states to get to 270. It's so close that it could still happen.

[The Yen Man]

At this point, for all the undecided voters, they know what Trump is character wise, and I don't think it matters much to them. To continue to go down the path of highlighting his flaws won't really work anymore. Those people care more about economic policies and how that impacts their lives. All the social stuff won't sway their votes IMO.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

As a progressive and member of a “special interest group” myself, I’ll still vote Democrat, but it is certainly despite people who pretend to be allies like yourself, and not because of you.

But... don't you live in Canada?

OH MY GOD THEY WERE RIGHT! There is voter fraud!

[Senator Clay Davis]

America (and Canada for that matter) need more joke candidates like the UK do. Give me Lord Buckethead or give me death.

[Sidney Crosby's Hat]

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

America (and Canada for that matter) need more joke candidates like the UK do. Give me Lord Buckethead or give me death.

Rhinocerous Party!

[nfotiu]

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

America (and Canada for that matter) need more joke candidates like the UK do. Give me Lord Buckethead or give me death.

We do have one, it just so happens that he may win again.

My neighbor added this to his Trump shrine this week.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

But... don't you live in Canada?

OH MY GOD THEY WERE RIGHT! There is voter fraud!

I am whoever the IRS says I am.

[KootenayFlamesFan]

Who's going to think of the rabbits?

https://twitter.com/user/status/1848754781512146956

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by GGG

The value of the progressives is the same value as the far right. Simply by existing you shift the middle. Both have been successful at moving the middle on a variety of issues

The extremes can also repel and cost votes.

Defund the Police was electoral poison to any Democrat who wasn’t politically savvy enough to immediately distance themselves from it.

The Republican’s hardline stance an abortion is almost certainly costing them more votes than it’s gaining them.

[activeStick]

CNN yesterday with their thoughts on Trump's "shift" at McDonald's.

https://twitter.com/user/status/1848358504563634529

[2Stonedbirds]

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

America (and Canada for that matter) need more joke candidates like the UK do. Give me Lord Buckethead or give me death.

Vermin Supreme should be running away with this thing.

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by #-3

I think right now the two biggest things I struggle with are,

1) Harris has to win support but she doesn't have clear policy ideas.
I'd go as far as to say that this is simple regurgitation of a right wing narrative without any investigation, but I would welcome discussion of an area where her campaign has not been clear about where they stand, I think they have been clear and have offered a better answer than Trump on everything.
https://kamalaharris.com/issues/

2) There seems to be a conversation that goes like this
person a - Harris isn't good enough on ____ issue
person b - She's better than Trump
person a - But I want someone better
person b - well you're not going to get someone better, the choices are Harris, Trump or let others decide.
person a - But I want someone better

As you can see while some insults have been thrown back and forth, where is conversation is losing momentum is some people would idealistically like to find the perfect set of options for their unique worldview and set of issues, they are fundamentally unable to answer the question of why they wouldn't offer full throated and genuine support for the person would be categorically better for everything the purport to care about. It leaves others suspicious that the main driver behind the argument isn't a desire for improvement on the issues you say you care about, but some fantastical hope for a perfect world. It is hard to improve when you are working with people are only interested in the ends and not interested in what is required to get there.

The thing is Harris like Biden is a normal politician, if the people who support her tell her they care about an issue she will work on it. Look at Biden, he isn't a climate guy. Decades in government he never made climate part of his value proposition to voters, but in 2020 the climate movement got behind him in the primaries, they supported and worked on his campaign, and he arguably delivered the biggest win they have seen from a single piece of government action. If you are constantly grasping for reasons not to support her, she will find other reachable interest groups and bend her policy towards what they want.

At some point 'better than' doesn't really matter, it can't get worse. As I said before, there has to be dealbreakers.

person a - Harris isn't good enough on Israel
person b - She's better than Trump
person a - better how? genocide is genocide
person b - The choices are Harris, Trump or let others decide.
person a - But I want one of them to be better, it can't get much worse
person b - Trump will never get better
person a - Harris is the government, You know what, if genocide is genocide and they are the same, I need a different issue. Maybe I could use some tax cuts.

[DownInFlames]

Originally Posted by activeStick

CNN yesterday with their thoughts on Trump's "shift" at McDonald's.

https://twitter.com/user/status/1848358504563634529

Did they mention that they closed the place down and hand-picked the “customers” for him? Did they mention that he refused to answer whether he would increases minimum wages for those employees? Any comment about him pointing out “fake news” while he does a fake job?

[direwolf]

Originally Posted by activeStick

CNN yesterday with their thoughts on Trump's "shift" at McDonald's.

https://twitter.com/user/status/1848358504563634529

Garbage reporting like this is absolutely infuriating. This kind of bulls*** is a big reason why this race is still a coin flip.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by KootenayFlamesFan

Who's going to think of the rabbits?

https://twitter.com/user/status/1848754781512146956

It does nothing to the desert and the rabbits love it because it provides shade from the desert sun. Trump is ####tard of epic proportions.

[Barnet Flame]

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

America (and Canada for that matter) need more joke candidates like the UK do. Give me Lord Buckethead or give me death.

The US has run a joke candidate for the past three elections.

[#-3]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

At some point 'better than' doesn't really matter, it can't get worse. As I said before, there has to be dealbreakers.

person a - Harris isn't good enough on Israel
person b - She's better than Trump
person a - better how? genocide is genocide
person b - The choices are Harris, Trump or let others decide.
person a - But I want one of them to be better, it can't get much worse
person b - Trump will never get better
person a - Harris is the government, You know what, if genocide is genocide and they are the same, I need a different issue. Maybe I could use some tax cuts.

The point was person A is not engaged in a discourse. They are ignoring the question, if these are your options who's better? I'm happy to engage both the questions you put out there at the end.

Trump says Israel needs to "finish what they started"

Harris "working to end the war in Gaza, such that Israel is secure, the hostages are released, the suffering in Gaza ends, and the Palestinian people can realize their right to dignity, security, freedom, and self-determination"

I think there is a certain willful ignorance to the situation here. You're given the choice between someone who is literally cheerleading the genocide, and someone who has publicly declared that they want to see an end to it. You are espousing authority to the position of VP that they just don't have, assuming someone in Harris' position has the ability, authority, autonomy to enact any change in US foreign policy or the policy of foreign governments and non-government actors, and you are gleefully will willing to watch things get much worse, just so that you can point out that someone else didn't do enough to make things better.

*Trump isn't offering tax cuts, he is offering a tax increase on most goods. And tax cuts do not always equal more wealth relative to inflation for the vast majority of people, many of the benefits people enjoy in life are government funded, and many of the things people buy are market driven (therefore if everyone across the board has more money they just inflate in cost).

Even if you are going to turn from Gaza been a key issue, any economist would tell you the economic platform Trump is putting forward is at best loony, 0 issues where Trump has better policy 0.

[Senator Clay Davis]

If Trump does lose though those "Put the fries in the bag bro" memes will be endless.