OK, sorry, you didn’t call them evil, you called them low effort, easily duped, irresponsible, uncaring, and the worst people out of all the voters.
Much better.
I did not conflate the two, but people with principles may make the decision not to vote because of those principles. You’re saying the other side doesn’t have any, so why should you? That’s lame, especially considering this particular note was brought up in reference to people not voting because they don’t agree with the decisions the Democratic Party made, and you suggesting them making a decision based on their principles is wrong and if they *really* cared they’d vote for them anyway.
You should urge everyone to vote based on their principles and what they believe is right. Including Republicans. It would avoid Trump. Nobody should vote for a specific party, or vote at all, if the vote would be for someone that doesn’t align with their principles.
This is one of those instances where you sound closer to a far-right Republican than a centrist Democrat.
Perhaps the Democratic Party should try to do a better job of reaching those people, no? Instead of just calling them irresponsible and shrugging their shoulders?
The comment has nothing to do with sides. It’s a statement that applies to all voters. “They’re not doing it so why should I” is a genuinely terrible approach.
This has been explained to you. It’s not the legitimacy of the danger that dictates what is or isn’t fear mongering, it’s the methodology behind how you make people aware of it.
Over-reliance on the most dramatic dangers, real or not, can be counterintuitive because it makes the danger seem abstract and hard to imagine.
I used to believe this kind of thing, too, and I still struggle with it sometimes. I get the need to blame everybody else for not doing what you think is the best thing, but in the end, especially when it comes to politics, you can’t absolve the parties of actually having to earn votes and you can lean into your own fear and anger and just blame everyone who didn’t do exactly what you want for you not getting it. People who vote Trump will have active ownership of Trump being in power, they literally voted for him. Lumping undecideds and people who just don’t vote for any number of reasons in with them? That’s just a weak scare/shame tactic to get people to do something. And guess what? It doesn’t work, and may even work against you.
And yet much of America disagrees with you, which is the problem that needs solving. And it literally is party’s fault. Their job during a campaign is to get elected. They’ve lost momentum, they’re falling at the worst possible time.
Should make for a quick debrief if they lose, though. The plan for 2028? “More of the same and we’ll see how it goes! They’ll come around.”
I do. Why complain about putting words in your mouth and then do the same? We’re not talking about the difference between them.
This has literally nothing to do with them moving further left or not, so I’m not sure what you’re accomplishing by trying to talk down to “the left.” Hell, if the Democrats want to appeal to the center-right Republicans at the expense of some votes on the left, go wild, but LOL if you’re going to sit there and say “the left” should just vote for them anyway.
Here’s a “hard truth” you don’t “seem willing to admit”: If people wanted the message the Democrats are offering to the extent you imagine they do, they’d be in blowout territory.
But, you know, they ain’t. And I understand it’s easier to look down on people who disagree with you or try to use shame or fear to make people do what you expect them to do, but where do you go from there when it doesn’t make a difference?
Against a very very beatable opponent, the Democrats are in danger of losing. Yet your position is that they’re inspiring, meeting voters where they are, and presenting good policy, and it’s not their fault they’re in danger of losing, it’s everyone else?
If they lose, that attitude is going to be a giant contributor.
What you seem to be saying here is that the progressive left is banding together to leverage their voting block to get at least lip service paid to some of their policies and causes.
That to me says that they are not genuinely interested in improving peoples lives, but are more interested in their cause getting wins.
I don't believe it is a fact that Harris lost momentum for shying away from any progressive policies. Unless you can provide some evidence otherwise, it seems her bubble just faded from a strong debate performance.
Sure, I'll blame Harris and her campaign if she loses. The same way I blame Hillary. The results are the results and they failed.
Any move towards a lot of left policies is going to lose votes. Who knows how many votes, but it's some, and not a matter of fact that they'd gain more than they lose.
I'm not going to call an abstainer evil. But, I'm not going to buy that they genuinely care about the causes they claim to if they're willing to influence an outcome that makes a lot of women/LBGQT+/visible minorities/immigrants lives worse. I am especially not going to hold them in high regard if they are a white male college student or recent grad who doesn't have to live with the consequences those groups do.
I can't fathom why someone wouldn't vote for the better outcome. A lot more change can actually be influenced at the house and senate primary level. The president is pretty limited in what they can actually change anyway, especially if they are president who follows the rules and doesn't have a Supreme Court in his back pocket.
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What you seem to be saying here is that the progressive left is banding together to leverage their voting block to get at least lip service paid to some of their policies and causes.
Well, I said literally nothing that is even remotely close to that, and actually said that individuals should be encouraged to vote (or not vote) according to their principles and the issues they feel are most important, whether Democrat or Republican, so I’m kind of fascinated by the leap.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nfotiu
I'm not going to call an abstainer evil. But, I'm not going to buy that they genuinely care about the causes they claim to if they're willing to influence an outcome that makes a lot of women/LBGQT+/visible minorities/immigrants lives worse. I am especially not going to hold them in high regard if they are a white male college student or recent grad who doesn't have to live with the consequences those groups do.
Yeah, sorry, not voting is not influencing the outcome. It’s literally choosing to have no influence on the outcome.
The rest is pretty arrogant, don’t you think? Maybe people don’t buy that the Democrats genuinely care about the causes they claim to if they’re willing to lose those voters? Maybe you shouldn’t?
Shades of Biden’s “they ain’t Black” comment though. Kudos.
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Well, I said literally nothing that is even remotely close to that, and actually said that individuals should be encouraged to vote (or not vote) according to their principles and the issues they feel are most important, whether Democrat or Republican, so I’m kind of fascinated by the leap.
Yeah, sorry, not voting is not influencing the outcome. It’s literally choosing to have no influence on the outcome.
The rest is pretty arrogant, don’t you think? Maybe people don’t buy that the Democrats genuinely care about the causes they claim to if they’re willing to lose those voters? Maybe you shouldn’t?
Shades of Biden’s “they ain’t Black” comment though. Kudos.
Kudos, you just proved my point that progressives care nothing about trying to win their own little victories with no regards to the consequences any disadvantaged groups may face.
Yeah, sorry, not voting is not influencing the outcome. It’s literally choosing to have no influence on the outcome.
The rest is pretty arrogant, don’t you think? Maybe people don’t buy that the Democrats genuinely care about the causes they claim to if they’re willing to lose those voters? Maybe you shouldn’t?
Shades of Biden’s “they ain’t Black” comment though. Kudos.
Kudos, you just proved my point that progressives care nothing about trying to win their own little victories with no regards to the consequences any disadvantaged groups may face.
No really different than MAGA, TBH.
Yeah, no. But I appreciate how desperate you are to stick that landing despite the cards not landing your way after the “so I presume what you’re saying is totally the opposite of what you’re saying!” flop.
I’m afraid you’re going to have to use the old noggin and make that point all on your own.
Because, you see, if Republicans actually voted for their own best interests/principles/beliefs, with no regards to the consequences any disadvantaged groups may face, they’d probably vote Democrat. And then you guys could stop screaming at “progressives” and “abstainers” who don’t just do whatever you tell them.
Something tells me you only actually care about the minority groups you’re name dropping if they’re obedient enough to vote how you do.
“No really different than MAGA, TBH.”
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Yeah, no. But I appreciate how desperate you are to stick that landing despite the cards not landing your way after the “so I presume what you’re saying is totally the opposite of what you’re saying!” flop.
I’m afraid you’re going to have to use the old noggin and make that point all on your own.
Because, you see, if Republicans actually voted for their own best interests/principles/beliefs, with no regards to the consequences any disadvantaged groups may face, they’d probably vote Democrat. And then you guys could stop screaming at “progressives” and “abstainers” who don’t just do whatever you tell them.
Something tells me you only actually care about the minority groups you’re name dropping if they’re obedient enough to vote how you do.
“No really different than MAGA, TBH.”
Everything you type is projecting. You are just throwing out insults and tropes with absolutely nothing intelligent to back it up.
Progressives have accomplishing nothing to actually help a single person. But they are sure happy to throw a lot of people under the bus with an end game of leveraging power to influence some ill-conceived pet policies that will likely cause more harm than good. But good for you for keeping up the good fight
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Well, I said literally nothing that is even remotely close to that, and actually said that individuals should be encouraged to vote (or not vote) according to their principles and the issues they feel are most important, whether Democrat or Republican, so I’m kind of fascinated by the leap.
Yeah, sorry, not voting is not influencing the outcome. It’s literally choosing to have no influence on the outcome.
The rest is pretty arrogant, don’t you think? Maybe people don’t buy that the Democrats genuinely care about the causes they claim to if they’re willing to lose those voters? Maybe you shouldn’t?
Shades of Biden’s “they ain’t Black” comment though. Kudos.
How is not voting not influencing the outcome? At some point, an indecision is a decision.
If under 30’s don’t vote (the most likely to abstain), then their needs will never never be considered. Even if you put in a fake name, at least it shows that one is willing to vote for a candidate. Why do you think politicians cater to people over 70? Because they’re the largest voting block.
But, may as well let other people choose for you, I guess.
Last edited by TherapyforGlencross; 10-21-2024 at 09:41 PM.
Everything you type is projecting. You are just throwing out insults and tropes with absolutely nothing intelligent to back it up.
Progressives have accomplishing nothing to actually help a single person. But they are sure happy to throw a lot of people under the bus with an end game of leveraging power to influence some ill-conceived pet policies that will likely cause more harm than good. But good for you for keeping up the good fight
Yeah damn those progressives and their let policies like supporting gay and trans rights, or womens right to choose, or anti racist policies. Remember when they were super radical and got the women’s right to vote and helped end segragation. And that wacky affordable care act. Stupid pet policies indeed.
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If under 30’s don’t vote (the most likely to abstain), then their needs will never never be considered. Even if you put in a fake name, at least it shows that one is willing to vote for a candidate. Why do you think politicians cater to people over 70? Because they’re the largest voting block.
It is quite a stretch to say that writing in a name on a ballot, especially a fake name, equates to voting for a candidate.
It is quite a stretch to say that writing in a name on a ballot, especially a fake name, equates to voting for a candidate.
Not voting screams apathy. Therefore, to a politician, they can be ignored. You relegate yourself to the least important constituency. Voting in a ridiculous name demonstrates the willingness to vote, and as such, should be heard. You can’t hear someone scream if their mouth is covered in tape.
edit: Of course, a no vote and a third party vote, is essentially voting for Trump for this election, but at least have some damn courage to vote.
Last edited by TherapyforGlencross; 10-21-2024 at 10:14 PM.
You totally ignored my point just so you could reiterate this talking point again.
I get it, Trump freaks you out, you don’t want to live if he’s Big P. But from the bottom of my heart, calm the #### down and listen to what people are saying.
If you’ve built “the right” into this evil monolith voting block, yet regardless of the real or imagined danger, you employ the exact same rhetoric and thinking that enables people like Trump and DeSantisand allows them to thrive.
This is not a game you can switch on and off. You argue you shouldn’t have any principles because “the other side” doesn’t. That’s not how principles work, you’re just justifying not having any. Whether you want to admit it or not, there are going to be a lot of good, principled people who for one reason or another vote Trump. It’s just the way it is. They’re not all evil crazy rednecks that want a fascist to kill all their enemies. Whether it’s differing political views, a differing sense of the “danger,” or just a lack of education, there’s a whole swath of people that will vote Trump that would, in fact, vote for someone a lot less crazy and a lot better for America.
So yeah, you should believe parties need to earn a vote. This isn’t controversial, unique, or something that you can just “pause” for one election. The fear mongering stuff just is not effective. And, at the end of the day, there’s very little you can do to convince someone how to vote, so you need to be happy with how you approach things. I’m not sure you realize it, but you are really good at projecting your own approach onto what you imagine as the very worst parts of the right wing.
As much as people like yourself don’t want to admit it, if Harris loses, it isn’t because of people who care about issues you don’t, or non-voters, or even Trump voters. It isn’t because she’s Black, or a woman. It’s because they ran a shruggie campaign and expected to win because they weren’t Trump. Instead of getting their head out of their ass and actually understanding the people they’re trying to govern, they maintained the status quo. Instead of capitalizing on the momentum they had, they said “no thanks” and immediately went back to the boring, uninspired Democratic Party we all know and love.
And you know why they do it? Because they’ve got people like you (not you, because you can’t vote) that will literally vote for them no matter what. They don’t have to earn your vote, or even care what you think, because you have no principles or interests that would stop you from voting D. They can do whatever, because there’s people like you. And so if they lose, it’s on them, and it’s on the people that enable them to mail it in.
Same reason Smith won despite copious video evidence of her being a crank. The negative ads wore out their welcome once people got sick of hearing how awful she was.
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Yeah damn those progressives and their let policies like supporting gay and trans rights, or womens right to choose, or anti racist policies. Remember when they were super radical and got the women’s right to vote and helped end segragation. And that wacky affordable care act. Stupid pet policies indeed.
All of those accomplishments are a result of voting in the more liberal party or candidates, not by a further left group abstaining from voting because the candidate was too corporate/a drone murderer/etc. The progressives don't even particularly care for the ACA as far as I can tell, and don't seem to offer much support in trying to improve it.
All of those accomplishments are a result of voting in the more liberal party or candidates, not by a further left group abstaining from voting because the candidate was too corporate/a drone murderer/etc. The progressives don't even particularly care for the ACA as far as I can tell, and don't seem to offer much support in trying to improve it.
The value of the progressives is the same value as the far right. Simply by existing you shift the middle. Both have been successful at moving the middle on a variety of issues
Everything you type is projecting. You are just throwing out insults and tropes with absolutely nothing intelligent to back it up.
Progressives have accomplishing nothing to actually help a single person. But they are sure happy to throw a lot of people under the bus with an end game of leveraging power to influence some ill-conceived pet policies that will likely cause more harm than good. But good for you for keeping up the good fight
Probably one of the most historically ignorant, least self-aware posts ever offered to this thread. Good job.
Maybe you were on one last night, as it’s clear you just had a bone to pick that you were going to pick with anyone who gave you the chance, but none of my posts were focused on progressives, the left, or any of what you’re ranting about. It is, however, too bad you don’t understand how many of the groups you claim to care about got the rights and freedoms they enjoy today.
As a progressive and member of a “special interest group” myself, I’ll still vote Democrat, but it is certainly despite people who pretend to be allies like yourself, and not because of you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TherapyforGlencross
Not voting screams apathy. Therefore, to a politician, they can be ignored. You relegate yourself to the least important constituency. Voting in a ridiculous name demonstrates the willingness to vote, and as such, should be heard. You can’t hear someone scream if their mouth is covered in tape.
edit: Of course, a no vote and a third party vote, is essentially voting for Trump for this election, but at least have some damn courage to vote.
I’m not advocating not voting anymore than I’m advocating voting Republican, but I am advocating for people to choose based on what matters to them as opposed to following some pressure, whether through shame, derision, or whatever, to “fall in line.” And again, that goes for anyone from extreme left to extreme right and (especially) everyone in between.
You say a no/third party vote is a vote for Trump. That’s because you are (or assuming would be, if American) a Democrat. It’s pretty easy to find a Republican that thinks a no/third party vote is a vote for Harris. Because both sides have a habit of thinking the votes left on the table rightly belonged to them.
Sometimes not voting is just lazy, or uncaring. But sometimes it takes courage not to vote. I wouldn’t say it’s all one thing. But if that’s the choice that makes sense to someone, due to apathy or just feeling like nobody had really earned their vote, then there’s no more shame in that than any other choice.
The value of the progressives is the same value as the far right. Simply by existing you shift the middle. Both have been successful at moving the middle on a variety of issues
Do they shift in their direction or away from their direction? It can go either way on both sides. The hard right wingers in the house have basically shifted the middle left.
The Tea Party, at first was successful in pushing their party right. But then they spread their reach too far and basically made Republicans unelectable in a lot of states and districts they were competitive in.
Probably one of the most historically ignorant, least self-aware posts ever offered to this thread. Good job.
Maybe you were on one last night, as it’s clear you just had a bone to pick that you were going to pick with anyone who gave you the chance, but none of my posts were focused on progressives, the left, or any of what you’re ranting about. It is, however, too bad you don’t understand how many of the groups you claim to care about got the rights and freedoms they enjoy today.
As a progressive and member of a “special interest group” myself, I’ll still vote Democrat, but it is certainly despite people who pretend to be allies like yourself, and not because of you.
You like to respond with jabs and insults and gloss over what I actually said... moving on.
One thing I take exception to is that I didn't claim that a member of a "special interest group" should vote for Harris if they don't feel she is going to be any better for them than Trump. I think polls show that most of those groups are terrified of another Trump presidency and will overwhelmingly vote for Harris.
My claim is that there are a group of "progressives" who may not be personally affected by a Trump presidency who will hold back their vote because Harris is not catering enough to their agenda.
You know that group better than me. Is that true or not?
I’m not advocating not voting anymore than I’m advocating voting Republican, but I am advocating for people to choose based on what matters to them as opposed to following some pressure, whether through shame, derision, or whatever, to “fall in line.” And again, that goes for anyone from extreme left to extreme right and (especially) everyone in between.
You say a no/third party vote is a vote for Trump. That’s because you are (or assuming would be, if American) a Democrat. It’s pretty easy to find a Republican that thinks a no/third party vote is a vote for Harris. Because both sides have a habit of thinking the votes left on the table rightly belonged to them.
Sometimes not voting is just lazy, or uncaring. But sometimes it takes courage not to vote. I wouldn’t say it’s all one thing. But if that’s the choice that makes sense to someone, due to apathy or just feeling like nobody had really earned their vote, then there’s no more shame in that than any other choice.
Fair enough, while I disagree, I feel that I can definitely understand where you’re coming from and agree that not voting, as a republican, is also a vote for Harris. While I hate Trump, I also think it would be inappropriate to base non-voting as a moral indignation rather than an issue with the election system. I still refer to it as apathy, as i view non-voting as defeatism or fine with the status-quo. If it’s defeatism, then I still view it as apathy. A la Russian apathy through voting defeatism.
Last edited by TherapyforGlencross; 10-22-2024 at 08:07 AM.
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You like to respond with jabs and insults and gloss over what I actually said... moving on.
Says the guy who kicked this off by completely ignoring what I said so you could go on your little rant about progressives and then compare the version of me you made up in your head to MAGA.
If you have a claim about a “group of progressives” maybe provide the evidence yourself? Why is it up to anyone else to confirm your own claim?
And why, given that this is the third time I’ve had to slowly explain to you that your rant has little to do with the actual focus on what I was talking about, would I be the one to do it for you?
Go on believing that progressives have never made progress happen and that they’re some nasty cabal banding together to withhold the vote you so deserve. Why should I care? We all like a little crazy once in a while.
