Israel declares war on Hamas

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by Oil Stain

So Israel continuing to take more land is the proper path forward in your mind?

Let me tell you this. The conflict is actually simple. Palestinians want to destroy Israel and rule this land. That's it. That's all you need to know. Long lists of mutual atrocities, historical arguments, legal battles are only mudding the picture. The only purpose of those is to back up the goal of Palestinians, to make it look legit.

So, as long as Palestinians want to destroy Israel, there's nothing Israel can do, short of self-unfolding, to solve the issue. As long, as Palestinians are yearning to have their own state from the river to the sea, there's no path forward. No matter what Israel does.

[Manhattanboy]

This is gut wrenching.

https://nypost.com/2023/10/18/heartb...lled-by-hamas/

[Oil Stain]

Originally Posted by Pointman

Let me tell you this. The conflict is actually simple. Palestinians want to destroy Israel and rule this land. That's it. That's all you need to know. Long lists of mutual atrocities, historical arguments, legal battles are only mudding the picture. The only purpose of those is to back up the goal of Palestinians, to make it look legit.

So, as long as Palestinians want to destroy Israel, there's nothing Israel can do, short of self-unfolding, to solve the issue. As long, as Palestinians are yearning to have their own state from the river to the sea, there's no path forward. No matter what Israel does.

Obviously a lot of the Palestinians are more upset over the events that transpired. They were pushed out of their homes and the Jews largely gained everything they were after and more.

So I guess now if you look at it as the Arab Palestinians will never be happy with any settlement, that makes it easier to justify taking even more from them?

The Isarelis have everything they wanted. Shouldn't rational Israelis be condemning settling more land in the West Bank? At this point its just kicking sand in the eyes of your defeated opponents.
The constant provocations makes it more likely for the cycle of violence to continue.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by tkflames

No such thing as winning "utterly" unless you are suggesting genocide which I doubt you are and also wouldnt work. The more one side wins, the more extremism they will build on the other side...even if for some reason the averge persons quality of life would be better under the new arrangement. This isn't like east and west Germany. It's more like US in Afghanistan. It never stops and the second there is even a minor breach, Hamas (or equivalent under a different name) would bully their way back in.

Where is Jarred and Ivanka when you need a quick fix?

well I am not advocating anything, I will be honest I got to 'a plague on both their houses' point around a decade ago, I sort of feel for the average shmoo caught up in it but I am also fairly sure none of them want to find a solution that costs 'their' side anything, Palestinians are fixed on Israel going back to pre '67 but even if they did there would still be groups lobbing mortars and rockets into Israel and there would still be Muslim politicians gaining power by whipping up anti Israel anti Semitic sentiment, Israel would be 30kms wide and still have some version of Hamas vowing their destruction just across the border in Jeruselam every few years, the hatred is to deep now

Israel on the other hand becomes equally extreme and relies on their superiority in power being permanent, which it won't be, when the US declines Israel will find itself surrounded by implacable enemies as it gets weaker by the decade, how that ends is anyones guess and that doesn't even take into account some crazy ISIS kid exploding half a pound of weapons grade plutonium and 40kg of semtex on the Golan Heights or the West Bank going all 72 virgins with a conventional dirty bomb that leaves 20 to 30% of Israel uninhabitable depending on the wind speed

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by Pointman

Let me tell you this. The conflict is actually simple. Palestinians want to destroy Israel and rule this land. That's it. That's all you need to know. Long lists of mutual atrocities, historical arguments, legal battles are only mudding the picture. The only purpose of those is to back up the goal of Palestinians, to make it look legit.

So, as long as Palestinians want to destroy Israel, there's nothing Israel can do, short of self-unfolding, to solve the issue. As long, as Palestinians are yearning to have their own state from the river to the sea, there's no path forward. No matter what Israel does.

Israel's great failure was in the 1980's and 90's prior to the rise of Muslim fundamentalism when they could have traded land for peace, Palestinians always wanted all their land back but there was a time when they didn't hate Israeli's, they were negotiable then but Israel invaded Lebanon and generally acted like a regional playground bully because the USSR was falling, the US had won and Israel was on the winning side in all the conflicts it has been drawn into

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by Oil Stain

Obviously a lot of the Palestinians are more upset over the events that transpired. They were pushed out of their homes and the Jews largely gained everything they were after and more.

So I guess now if you look at it as the Arab Palestinians will never be happy with any settlement, that makes it easier to justify taking even more from them?

The Isarelis have everything they wanted. Shouldn't rational Israelis be condemning settling more land in the West Bank? At this point its just kicking sand in the eyes of your defeated opponents.
The constant provocations makes it more likely for the cycle of violence to continue.

There's no point in justifying everything Israel does. Israel did and keeps doing a lot of wrong. But Palestinians made it clear several times, including in this thread, that they want Israel to disappear. They settle on nothing less. Israel could behave better, but it would not change things at all. Every argument Palestinians bring, legit or not, is supposed to justify the eradication of Israel. When Britain divided Palestine between Jews and Arabs, it were Jews who agreed and Arabs who disagreed. They wanted a permanent war in an effort to take the whole land. I guess they got their wish.

[Snuffleupagus]

The only way this type of crap is going to end is with this...



Or somehow we get rid of the incredibly stupid thing called religion that breeds tribalism, hatred and greed.

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

Israel's great failure was in the 1980's and 90's prior to the rise of Muslim fundamentalism when they could have traded land for peace, Palestinians always wanted all their land back but there was a time when they didn't hate Israeli's, they were negotiable then but Israel invaded Lebanon and generally acted like a regional playground bully because the USSR was falling, the US had won and Israel was on the winning side in all the conflicts it has been drawn into

You made it sound like it's Israel fault that Palestinians are set to destroy it. Like Israel could have used smarter negotiation tactics to convince Palestinians to abandon the idea of destroying Israel. The fundamental error with this logic is that it places onus on Israel to convince Palestinians that it's not ok to try to destroy another state. It's not. Palestinians are fully responsible for their own goals.

It's like if I decided that I want to kill you, for whatever reason. However, I decided to meet you in person first and talk about it. If you talked nicely and convincingly to me, you could have talked me out of my goal of killing you. But you were rude to me. So now I want to kill you even stronger, and I keep trying. See it's all your fault.

[FormerPresJamesTaylor]

Originally Posted by Pointman

Apparently, Gaza students can study in USA, there was even a special program for that. Weird, I thought it was an open-air prison

https://www.yesprograms.org/countries/gaza

There's the master of disinformation we know and love. Because 206 students since 2003 have taken part in this YES program we can now successfully brush aside the open air prison label.

Congrats, you found the loop hole.

[WCW Nitro]

Originally Posted by Pointman

Let me tell you this. The conflict is actually simple. Palestinians want to destroy Israel and rule this land. That's it. That's all you need to know. Long lists of mutual atrocities, historical arguments, legal battles are only mudding the picture. The only purpose of those is to back up the goal of Palestinians, to make it look legit.

So, as long as Palestinians want to destroy Israel, there's nothing Israel can do, short of self-unfolding, to solve the issue. As long, as Palestinians are yearning to have their own state from the river to the sea, there's no path forward. No matter what Israel does.

Sure, if we ignore all the Israeli officials over the years who have said they will continue to build settlements for religious reasons.

[FormerPresJamesTaylor]

Originally Posted by Pointman

I thanked your post, but I also want to designate a separate post to thank you. The more mindless rambling from Palestinian posters, the better I guess. It reads somewhere between "what the hell is he talking about" and "I guess it was some kind of attempt of sarcasm, but I'm not really sure".

You guess that was sarcasm? PepsiFree knocked you over the head with the most obvious sarcasm and you're guessing?

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by WCW Nitro

Sure, if we ignore all the Israeli officials over the years who have said they will continue to build settlements for religious reasons.

They didn't build a single settlement in Gaza since 2005, yet Hamas keeps bombing Israel. See, it's just an excuse. You want to destroy Israel.

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by FormerPresJamesTaylor

You guess that was sarcasm? PepsiFree knocked you over the head with the most obvious sarcasm and you're guessing?

I didn't say it was sarcasm. I said it was an attempt to sarcasm. But I wasn't sure. I'm still not sure. Responding with sarcasm to a post, that is factually correct, is so weird. Generally, sarcasm is a very niche tool. For it to be successful, you need several factors simultaneously:

1. Someone needs to say something very stupid, which doesn't happen often in serious discussion.
2. Others need to feel like laughing at that person, which rarely happens. Usually, when someone is saying something stupid, others are trying to ignore it or make it look better, instead of laughing at it.
3. The fact, that the sarcastic man is right and his target is wrong should be abundantly clear to the audience.

Unless all three are correct, attempting sarcasm is a bad move. People will feel like this stuff belongs to kindergarten.

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by Snuffleupagus

The only way this type of crap is going to end is with this...



Or somehow we get rid of the incredibly stupid thing called religion that breeds tribalism, hatred and greed.

Religion is stupid. But it's not the root cause if the conflict. Land is. Even in the 2017 update of Hamas charter they say that they have no problem with Judaism and just want the whole land.

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by FormerPresJamesTaylor

There's the master of disinformation we know and love. Because 206 students since 2003 have taken part in this YES program we can now successfully brush aside the open air prison label.

Congrats, you found the loop hole.

How many Gaza students studied abroad on other programs? How comes there are so many dual citizens over there? You took the number from the very link I posted and claim that I am master of disinformation?

How about this for starters:
https://www.timesofisrael.com/gaza-w...-guardian-law/

Now this:
https://www.nbcnews.com/id/wbna44179843

Or this:
https://gisha.org/en/israel-allows-3...their-studies/

[activeStick]

The world tried to intervene, but the US vetoed it.

https://twitter.com/user/status/1714649681521791305

The United States on Wednesday vetoed a UN Security Council resolution that would have called for “humanitarian pauses” to deliver lifesaving aid to millions in Gaza. The failure by the Council to make its first public intervention on the Israel-Gaza crisis followed the rejection of a Russian-backed draft on Monday evening.

https://news.un.org/en/story/2023/10/1142507

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by Pointman

You made it sound like it's Israel fault that Palestinians are set to destroy it. Like Israel could have used smarter negotiation tactics to convince Palestinians to abandon the idea of destroying Israel. The fundamental error with this logic is that it places onus on Israel to convince Palestinians that it's not ok to try to destroy another state. It's not. Palestinians are fully responsible for their own goals.

It's like if I decided that I want to kill you, for whatever reason. However, I decided to meet you in person first and talk about it. If you talked nicely and convincingly to me, you could have talked me out of my goal of killing you. But you were rude to me. So now I want to kill you even stronger, and I keep trying. See it's all your fault.

It's not a question of fault, it's a question of practicality, Israel had a window to try and make peace and chose to invade Lebanon and sponsor a horrific atrocity against Palestinian and Shia refugees, killing hundreds perhaps thousands of women and children and leading to, you guessed it, the creation of Hezbollah and the almost permanent destabilization of Lebanon, it was a dumb move that Israel is paying for to this day, frankly even if it hadnt led to peace if they had at least stayed out there would be no Hezbollah today, think about that, no Hezbollah at all.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Beninho

Palestinians deserve their own state but to Israelis there is less than zero trust that Palestinians would not continue to wage war with Israel if there was a Palestinian state. That is where the crux of this issues lies. Radical Islam within Palestinian society makes Israelis concerns valid, and the attack of last week only confirmed that. How can Israel trust that a Palestinian state would not become another proxy for Iran? I am seriously wondering how you think Israel could trust Palestinians and what needs to occur so a religious dictatorship would not be in control of a future Palestinian state? I am actually interested in hearing your views on this, not trying to argue.

Take a minute and think about this from the other side. How can Palestinians trust Israel at this point, either? If Israel is surprised at how this has all played out, they really shouldn't be. They've been provoking for decades, and no, you can't just blow off the settlements. That's a huge issue that continues to this day.

Israel’s hardline coalition government has approved plans for thousands of new housing units in the occupied West Bank and given the far-right finance minister sweeping powers to expedite the construction of illegal settlements, bypassing measures that have been in place for 27 years.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/...uilding-powers


Like, huh, ya let me puzzle out why they can't be trusted. It's a real noodle buster. This was in June of this year.

[Red Slinger]

Originally Posted by Snuffleupagus

The only way this type of crap is going to end is with this...

I sincerely hope you're not soliciting a nuclear attack on either Gaza or Israel.

Or somehow we get rid of the incredibly stupid thing called religion that breeds tribalism, hatred and greed.

Religion is just a proxy. If not for religion, it would be another excuse. Humans are tribal and always have been. It's part of our DNA. It's also why I'm 62.8% sure that humans will not survive on Earth 1000 years from now.

What's really sad about this whole thing is that the so-called leadership of both Hamas and Israel don't want peace. Hamas wants to wipe Israel out or go to their Forever Happy Place trying. Israel has Netanyahu and a bunch of pseudo-fascist war hawks in power who believe peace means only one thing: winning. Leadership from both groups are propped up by external forces who want the opposite of peace for their own selfish reasons. Hamas is propped up by Iran, Russia and other bad actors in the region. Israel is propped up by the US, especially the right-wing which infiltrates Israeli politics (in particular a large right-wing voting block in the Evangelicals for whom this conflict is VERY much about religion).

It's easy to blame Palestinians and Israelis but they're pawns in this disgusting game between some truly sinister groups. The real blame should go to those who are pulling the strings behind the scenes as the average Palestinian and the average Israeli don't want their children to live in a state of constant danger. That said, individuals or groups that commit atrocities need to be brought to justice, but that doesn't address the root cause of the issue. It's more like a Hydra: cut off one head and three more pop up.

[afc wimbledon]

And if you cant see a parallel between '82 and today when Israel was successful in pushing the PLO out of Lebanon but in the process created a far worse more powerful enemy in Hezbollah I am not sure what to say, Israel will undoubtedly be able to wipe out Hamas and push them out of Gaza but it will likely lead to even more violent groups that will spring up in their place