Alberta Politics & Government Thread 3.0

[MelBridgeman]

Originally Posted by GGG

You said you want equality of opportunity so we start with a child being born.

Every child by your principles should have equal opportunity in life to succeed and say become prime minister or ceo of a bank. This means no private schools, subsidies so all kids have same quality daycare or opportunity to have a stat at home parent, subsides for club sports so all kids can afford them, no parental contributions to universities and no parental contributions for jobs via nepotism or housing down payments or business investments.

The opportunity for each child has should be equal right? This means that the starting points for each child be equal or heavy subsidies to provide equalization for those kids that don’t have an equal starting points.

You want Trudeau’s kids and the crack baby to have the same opportunity right? It will take a lot of government intervention for that to occur.

I suspect you don’t actually believe in equality of opportunity.

You just don't know what it means

Equality of opportunity doesn’t mean ensuring that everyone starts with exactly the same resources or conditions

it's creating a fair framework where individuals can succeed based on their effort, talent, and choices

Equality of opportunity doesn’t require a utopian system where everyone has the exact same starting point but rather a society where effort and ability matter more than background

Attempting to erase all differences in starting points would align more with the concept of equality of outcome rather than equality of opportunity

I think these ideas are above your pay grade

[MelBridgeman]

Originally Posted by iggy_oi

I think it would be helpful if you would explain how you define equal outcome in an economic capacity. People having access to healthcare, affordable childcare and other programs while earning moderately higher wages in no way guarantees that they will all end up in the same financial situation as you or anybody else.



Comparing an economy where you can choose to work wherever will higher you or invest in any business/property that you want to and that provides some basic benefits and protections to people(which we already do anyways) with an authoritarian regime is a little extreme, don’t you think?



The reality is that having some forms of assistance does not guarantee an outcome. People who are born very well off or who weren’t but have amassed significant wealth to this point will still remain way ahead of those who are currently struggling.

^^^ Simpleton version for ya.

[Fuzz]

Sure, Iggy, but the greedy rich don't care about those struggling as long as they get more of theirs.



Health insurance companies are a great example of this because by denying and delaying they make more money and inflict suffering on the vulnerable. And they don't ####ing care. I understand people who haven't experienced this don't get it, or will make 100 excuses why this is ok, so don't bother.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Wouldn't catering to greed just be a confounding variable to your analysis? If, instead, as SebC notes we recognized it wasn't good for society, you could temper it and improve general outcomes? I don't believe greed in and of itself is a fundamental requirement for a capitalistic society to function. I think greedy people want us to believe it so they can normalize their poor behaviors.

I agree greed in some forms is not good in society. The Monopoly end point of capitalism is a result of unmitigated greed. I don’t think catering to greed is the correct way of framing this. It’s designing policy with the recognition that greed exists to get the desired outcomes you want.

How does capitalism work without self interest though (unless you distinguish self interest from greed). The entire basis is a system of people pursuing profit to benefit themselves and that self interest allocates resources to the ideas that produce the most surplus. It’s why pollution taxes work and are necessary as capitalism will always ignore things that don’t have a monetary cost.

I think creating a monetary cost for the negative aspects of greed whether that be regulation, tax, or Social coercion is the only way to manage it. I see it has the driving force in the capitalist system and the reason why capitalism needs to be regulated

[MelBridgeman]

Originally Posted by GGG

I agree greed in some forms is not good in society. The Monopoly end point of capitalism is a result of unmitigated greed. I don’t think catering to greed is the correct way of framing this. It’s designing policy with the recognition that greed exists to get the desired outcomes you want.

How does capitalism work without self interest though (unless you distinguish self interest from greed). The entire basis is a system of people pursuing profit to benefit themselves and that self interest allocates resources to the ideas that produce the most surplus. It’s why pollution taxes work and are necessary as capitalism will always ignore things that don’t have a monetary cost.

I think creating a monetary cost for the negative aspects of greed whether that be regulation, tax, or Social coercion is the only way to manage it. I see it has the driving force in the capitalist system and the reason why capitalism needs to be regulated

Holy F you don't even know what capitalism works lol

it’s not inherently based on greed. Capitalism is an economic system where private individuals and businesses own the means of production, and decisions about investment, production, and distribution are driven by market forces

I give ya that to a corky thinker it might seem like greed but it's driven by market forces.

Let's remember to be successful in capitalism takes an army and everyone gets compensated based on the value you they provided to that success.

Now that's not to say that greedy people don't take part....usually the greedy ones are the criminal ones.

i.e. Bernie Madoff

[GGG]

Originally Posted by MelBridgeman

You just don't know what it means



I think these ideas are above your pay grade

Where are those quotes from?

But I accept the following definition

it's creating a fair framework where individuals can succeed based on their effort, talent, and choices

So now explain to me the system you support that ensures Trudeau’s kids and the crack baby can meet these ideals?

It seems that significant government subsidy will be required so that people who start in a much less fortunate position can succeed based on their effort talent and choices.

And if you note I didn’t suggest people needed to start from the exact same initial conditions. I had a very important OR there. Essentially I had assumed perhaps incorrectly that it would be read as. Since it’s not possible for everyone to have the same initial starting conditions that significant subsidies would have to be put in place to bridge the gap between people who start at significantly different initial conditions to allow each person an equal opportunity at a positive outcome.

Allow me to quote Milton Friedman on his discussion of equality of opportunity

no arbitrary obstacles" blocking a person from realizing their ambitions: "Not birth, nationality, color, religion, sex, nor any other irrelevant characteristic should determine the opportunities that are open to a person – only his abilities".[46]

Parental wealth is an irrelevant characteristic

[GGG]

Originally Posted by MelBridgeman

Holy F you don't even know what capitalism works lol



I give ya that to a corky thinker it might seem like greed but it's driven by market forces.

Let's remember to be successful in capitalism takes an army and everyone gets compensated based on the value you they provided to that success.

Now that's not to say that greedy people don't take part....usually the greedy ones are the criminal ones.

i.e. Bernie Madoff

Define market forces and for ####s sake can you at least link your quotes if you are going to use them to insult me.

Market forces are thousands of individuals acting in self interest

[MelBridgeman]

Originally Posted by GGG

Define market forces and for ####s sake can you at least link your quotes if you are going to use them to insult me.

Market forces are thousands of individuals acting in self interest

You are a market force bro, everytime you spend money.

Capitalism is an economic framework rather than a moral or ethical system. Its outcomes depend on how it’s implemented, regulated, and balanced with societal values. Greed can exist in any system, but capitalism’s emphasis on competition and individual initiative doesn’t necessarily equate to promoting greed.

Sources?

it's called reading

https://evonomics.com/role-of-morali...ce=chatgpt.com

https://www.e-elgar.com/shop/usd/cap...ce=chatgpt.com

I have more if you want, but alas i am sure these sources don't align with appears to be a Social Democrat slant on economics ala Robert Reich University

[GGG]

Originally Posted by MelBridgeman

You are a market force bro, everytime you spend money.



Sources?

it's called reading

https://evonomics.com/role-of-morali...ce=chatgpt.com

https://www.e-elgar.com/shop/usd/cap...ce=chatgpt.com

I have more if you want, but alas i am sure these sources don't align with appears to be a Social Democrat slant on economics ala Robert Reich University

Did you read my post. Your quote is almost exactly what i wrote in response to Fuzz.

[MelBridgeman]

Originally Posted by GGG

So now explain to me the system you support that ensures Trudeau’s kids and the crack baby can meet these ideals?

One last time to address your "strawman"

equality of opportunity doesn’t mean identical outcomes or erasing all advantages but providing fair chances for individuals to succeed regardless of their background.

[MelBridgeman]

Originally Posted by GGG

Did you read my post. Your quote is almost exactly what i wrote in response to Fuzz.

Probably not, sorry

[GGG]

Originally Posted by MelBridgeman

Probably not, sorry

So you are responding to me without reading what I am saying? You appear to have assigned me a political slant and are responding to what you believe I am writing rather than what I actually wrote.

Not best way to have well reasoned discourse. I will chose not to engage with you in the future.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by MelBridgeman

One last time to address your "strawman"

Milton would call who your parents are an “irrelevant characteristic” that should not determine the opportunities available to you.

[MelBridgeman]

Originally Posted by GGG

So you are responding to me without reading what I am saying? You appear to have assigned me a political slant and are responding to what you believe I am writing rather than what I actually wrote.

Not best way to have well reasoned discourse. I will chose not to engage with you in the future.

I am responding to your response to me, sorry i hadn't read your response to someone else yet.

[MelBridgeman]

Originally Posted by GGG

Milton would call who your parents are an “irrelevant characteristic” that should not determine the opportunities available to you.

I think you might be confusing opportuity with advantage. Thre are plenty of kids who come from money who amount to #### or end up on the streets even if they come from a good home.

And there stories of people who came from nothing or broken abusive homes who have amounted to something.

Milton has good ideas but not all of them, i mean if you think someone ideas are 100 percent perfect, time to look in the mirror

But there is also who have mostly bad ideas based on whatever you want to call it morality or "feelings"

[GGG]

Originally Posted by MelBridgeman

I am responding to your response to me, sorry i hadn't read your response to someone else yet.

No the quote you quoted when you claimed I don’t know how capitalism works was a reply to Fuzz and not you. You clearly didn’t read it because it describes essentially Brankos position in your links. Or you didn’t read your links. One of the two.

[GGG]

nm

[Roughneck]

Originally Posted by MelBridgeman

Sources?

it's called reading

https://evonomics.com/role-of-morali...ce=chatgpt.com

https://www.e-elgar.com/shop/usd/cap...ce=chatgpt.com

I have more if you want, but alas i am sure these sources don't align with appears to be a Social Democrat slant on economics ala Robert Reich University

You have more, or source=chatgpt.com has more?

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Roughneck

You have more, or source=chatgpt.com has more?

Have you seen any time Mel tries an original thought or recite something from memory? It’s like watching a dog vomit and eat it.

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by MelBridgeman

^^^ Simpleton version for ya.

Are you referring to the response you gave to GGG?