Alberta Politics & Government Thread 3.0

[MelBridgeman]

Originally Posted by GGG

I don’t think you would get much disagreement there. I assume you are advocating then for much stronger child family funding and free post secondary education and massive inheritance taxes to equalize the opportunity.

What you just described is in fact Equality of outcome, which is bad very very very bad.

People aren't created equal, therefore you will have different outcomes.

[Yamer]

Originally Posted by MelBridgeman

What you just described is in fact Equality of outcome, which is bad very very very bad.

People aren't created equal, therefore you will have different outcomes.

That's why you create equal of opportunity, to give the best equal of outcome.

One begets the other.

[BoLevi]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Explanations like this are why our world is so well and truly ####ed. What a collection of fetid tripe.

And yet what I said regarding greed being a constant is axiomatic.

From there it simply follows that inflation is a result of too many dollars chasing too few goods.

People make this more complicated than it ought to be - presumably because many people need to have their political worldview confirmed.

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by MelBridgeman

What you just described is in fact Equality of outcome, which is bad very very very bad.

Not even a little bit. It’s about allowing for economic mobility so that motivated people can actually get ahead. It’s not going to make everyone equally wealthy so there will still be people that folks who like to look down on others can still look down on. Not sure why you’d be so opposed to that seeing as you appear to enjoy bragging about staying so financially ahead of people who might work just as hard or harder than you do.

People aren't created equal, therefore you will have different outcomes.

I don’t think birth lotteries have historically worked out well for the majority of people.

[Goriders]

Originally Posted by iggy_oi

I consider that to be one of the best things. Words can’t hurt you and at times they can be quite entertaining.

Differing opinions are hurtful though.

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by Goriders

Differing opinions are hurtful though.

Maybe to some

[MelBridgeman]

Originally Posted by iggy_oi

Not even a little bit. It’s about allowing for economic mobility so that motivated people can actually get ahead. It’s not going to make everyone equally wealthy so there will still be people that folks who like to look down on others can still look down on. Not sure why you’d be so opposed to that seeing as you appear to enjoy bragging about staying so financially ahead of people who might work just as hard or harder than you do.

We should strive for economic mobility and we do more so than any system, but i don't agree with the goverment articially providing that equal outcome for you. That is a step towards equality of outcome, which was tried in the Soviet Union and was an epic failure.

Originally Posted by iggy_oi

I don’t think birth lotteries have historically worked out well for the majority of people.

Not really sure what you mean but it's just reality and policy should be based on reality. The NHL isn't full of 700 McDavids.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by MelBridgeman

We should strive for economic mobility and we do more so than any system, but i don't agree with the goverment articially providing that equal outcome for you. That is a step towards equality of outcome, which was tried in the Soviet Union and was an epic failure.

Not really sure what you mean but it's just reality and policy should be based on reality. The NHL isn't full of 700 McDavids.

Do you believe disabled people should be provided supports or that they should be mocked for having no other choice but to work a minimum wage job? What level of support is ok in your mind?

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by BoLevi

And yet what I said regarding greed being a constant is axiomatic.

From there it simply follows that inflation is a result of too many dollars chasing too few goods.

People make this more complicated than it ought to be - presumably because many people need to have their political worldview confirmed.

You understand greed is not a feature off all people, right? It's a character flaw that some have, and tends to be magnified the more stuff greedy people acquire.

[MelBridgeman]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Do you believe disabled people should be provided supports or that they should be mocked for having no other choice but to work a minimum wage job? What level of support is ok in your mind?

Pickles back with his patented straw man.

I have used the word ABLE many moons back brah. If you are able.

But i will say this, the way the economy has progressed with technology there are even more opportunites for disabled people to seek employment, depending on what ails you.

Love the free market!

[MelBridgeman]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

You understand greed is not a feature off all people, right? It's a character flaw that some have, and tends to be magnified the more stuff greedy people acquire.

there is 2 coins to that one, greed can be

Greed can be seen as a response to feelings of scarcity, insecurity, or fear of not having enough.

or

It can also be linked to the desire for status or power.

Not all greed is equal, Pickles!

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by MelBridgeman

Pickles back with his patented straw man.

I have used the word ABLE many moons back brah. If you are able.

But i will say this, the way the economy has progressed with technology there are even more opportunites for disabled people to seek employment, depending on what ails you.

Love the free market!

It was a question, not a straw man. One I notice you didn't even attempt to answer.

[Fuzz]

Also, I'm kinda Calgarygeolisting this one.

[Cappy]

Originally Posted by MelBridgeman

What you just described is in fact Equality of outcome, which is bad very very very bad.

People aren't created equal, therefore you will have different outcomes.

No that’s equal opportunity, man.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by MelBridgeman

What you just described is in fact Equality of outcome, which is bad very very very bad.

People aren't created equal, therefore you will have different outcomes.

You said you want equality of opportunity so we start with a child being born.

Every child by your principles should have equal opportunity in life to succeed and say become prime minister or ceo of a bank. This means no private schools, subsidies so all kids have same quality daycare or opportunity to have a stat at home parent, subsides for club sports so all kids can afford them, no parental contributions to universities and no parental contributions for jobs via nepotism or housing down payments or business investments.

The opportunity for each child has should be equal right? This means that the starting points for each child be equal or heavy subsidies to provide equalization for those kids that don’t have an equal starting points.

You want Trudeau’s kids and the crack baby to have the same opportunity right? It will take a lot of government intervention for that to occur.

I suspect you don’t actually believe in equality of opportunity.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

You understand greed is not a feature off all people, right? It's a character flaw that some have, and tends to be magnified the more stuff greedy people acquire.

Capitalism is a system in which the distribution of labour is incentivized by greed. It works precisely because people act in self interest. It also needs to be well regulated because people generally act in self interest. I’m of the belief there is no such thing as altruism, people just get a different kind of fufillment from being altruistic. It’s still all dopamine hits.

In general the types of regulations and redistribution methods that are employed by modern governments are designed around aiming people’s actions of self interest to drive behaviour. Perverse incentives show up all the time so regulation needs to be well crafted. But greed is certainly one of two main societal drivers. The other is social conformance. In highly collective cultures social conformance can be used to regulate greed in individualistic cultures regulation is required.

So I think Bo is correct in stating that greed should be the assumed outcome rather than a controllable variable in any kind of macro economic analysis.

[SebC]

Originally Posted by GGG

So I think Bo is correct in stating that greed should be the assumed outcome rather than a controllable variable in any kind of macro economic analysis.

But greed is not fixed. Hefty public shaming, high marginal taxation, and the occasional use of a guillotine here and there would reduce it.

[Fuzz]

Wouldn't catering to greed just be a confounding variable to your analysis? If, instead, as SebC notes we recognized it wasn't good for society, you could temper it and improve general outcomes? I don't believe greed in and of itself is a fundamental requirement for a capitalistic society to function. I think greedy people want us to believe it so they can normalize their poor behaviors.

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by MelBridgeman

We should strive for economic mobility and we do more so than any system, but i don't agree with the goverment articially providing that equal outcome for you.

I think it would be helpful if you would explain how you define equal outcome in an economic capacity. People having access to healthcare, affordable childcare and other programs while earning moderately higher wages in no way guarantees that they will all end up in the same financial situation as you or anybody else.

That is a step towards equality of outcome, which was tried in the Soviet Union and was an epic failure.

Comparing an economy where you can choose to work wherever will higher you or invest in any business/property that you want to and that provides some basic benefits and protections to people(which we already do anyways) with an authoritarian regime is a little extreme, don’t you think?

Not really sure what you mean but it's just reality and policy should be based on reality. The NHL isn't full of 700 McDavids.

The reality is that having some forms of assistance does not guarantee an outcome. People who are born very well off or who weren’t but have amassed significant wealth to this point will still remain way ahead of those who are currently struggling.

[D as in David]

Originally Posted by Cappy

No that’s equal opportunity, man.

Their argument appears to be that equal opportunity is an outcome and you can't have that. People need to earn that equal opportunity otherwise it is unequal.