Alberta Election Thread - Election Day April 16 2019

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

Originally Posted by IliketoPuck

If the allegations are true, sure, very dubious ethics. If he's proven to have broken the law, then he should be held accountable.

But let's not pretend like the timing of this coming out in the weeks before the election is a coincidence.

Except the NDP have nothing to do with this coming out, so why even bring them up? What does this have to do with the NDP being desperate?

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by IliketoPuck

Given I haven't followed it closely, maybe this has been answered already, but why didn't this come out shortly after the parties merged? Because clearly those individuals knew at that time what was going on. So here we are, in the single month before the election, when it is potentially most damaging, and suddenly it is a big deal.

Probably because of the investigations that took place after...like that of Happy Mann and Cameron Davies. Not to mention the other internal elections. People unhappy that they didn't end up as the candidates (or their candidates didn't end up on the ballot) are now leaking stuff. It's clearly from the UCP members, not NDP.

But what is your argument? You don't care that Kenney is (likely) lying through his teeth about corruption due to his entitlement? Just don't be surprised when the UCP gains leadership, become comfortable and ends up entitled, like the exact reason we got rid of the PC's then.

[Ozy_Flame]

Originally Posted by Bring_Back_Shantz

As for the NDP being desperate, what does potential cheating in a leadership race have to do with the NDP. They aren't the ones making a fuss about it or investigating it. What they are doing, is rightfully pointing out that maybe if someone is willing to lie and cheat their way to being a party leader, he may not be the most trustworthy candidate when it comes to becoming Premier.

It's also fairly easy to see that as a career conservative politician (from Ontario no less), Kenney is making a power move for his career to lead a jurisdiction that would most likely position him as a lead. This is a guy who abandoned his MP status (and criticized by the CTF for doing so) so he could run for the power vaccum that existed here. And the irregularities in the nomination process for leading the UCP lends to this narrative that it really is about positioning for power, especially when he gets a chance to challenge Trudeau and the Liberals.

This is as much about Kenney's political career as it is about the welfare of Albertans and Alberta values. But most UCP supporters may never see it that way.

[IliketoPuck]

Originally Posted by Bring_Back_Shantz

Except the NDP have nothing to do with this coming out, so why even bring them up? What does this have to do with the NDP being desperate?

That comment was more directed to the negative attacks that have occurred repeatedly this election.

Certainly the UCP leadership issue is a UCP internal issue. But, again, the timing of it coming out doesn't hurt the NDP.

Ultimately, I just want the election to be over. The negativity is getting pervasive.

[Muta]

Double meat at Subway back on the menu next week, fellas! Get yo eating pants ready!!

[IliketoPuck]

Originally Posted by Oling_Roachinen

Probably because of the investigations that took place after...like that of Happy Mann and Cameron Davies. Not to mention the other internal elections. People unhappy that they didn't end up as the candidates (or their candidates didn't end up on the ballot) are now leaking stuff. It's clearly from the UCP members, not NDP.

But what is your argument? You don't care that Kenney is (likely) lying through his teeth about corruption due to his entitlement? Just don't be surprised when the UCP gains leadership, become comfortable and ends up entitled, like the exact reason we got rid of the PC's then.

All I was saying is that in my opinion, things like the "stalking horse" are just politics. Especially so when all of the firestorm news surrounding this is coming out at the time it is.

For me, this election is about Alberta's economy and fiscal policy. Everything else, unless someone has broken the law, is background noise at this point.

If the NDP had shown fiscal and economic leadership in their platform, and in their actions over their last four years, then I would have likely voted for them. Alas.

[Ozy_Flame]

IliketoPuck:

Once Kenney and the UCP have fixed everything, do you think they're going to improve the lives of minority and at-risk groups, such as LGBTQ?

The fact that they were introducing Education rollbacks - at a time when everything is about pipelines, economy, and jobs - seems very suspicious, and reeking of ideological imposition. Then Kenney has the gall to say it's not important, worrying about this stuff.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Originally Posted by IliketoPuck

For me, this election is about Alberta's economy and fiscal policy. Everything else, unless someone has broken the law, is background noise at this point.

This is quite the statement. There's simply no line that a politician can cross, short of being convicted of a criminal offense, that is even relevant to your voting decision?

Let's say the UCP's platform had included a plank about establishing a new pro-Third Reich museum extolling the virtues of Hitler's leadership style and ambitions. Presumably this would have minimal impact on the economy. It probably wouldn't be against the law, provided that it didn't explicitly promote anti-semitism. You would dismiss this as "background noise"?

[Shazam]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

This is quite the statement. There's simply no line that a politician can cross, short of being convicted of a criminal offense, that is even relevant to your voting decision?

Let's say the UCP's platform had included a plank about establishing a new pro-Third Reich museum extolling the virtues of Hitler's leadership style and ambitions. Presumably this would have minimal impact on the economy. It probably wouldn't be against the law, provided that it didn't explicitly promote anti-semitism. You would dismiss this as "background noise"?

Does the strawman have a Hitlerstache?

[LanceUppercut]

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

IliketoPuck:

Once Kenney and the UCP have fixed everything, do you think they're going to improve the lives of minority and at-risk groups, such as LGBTQ?

The fact that they were introducing Education rollbacks - at a time when everything is about pipelines, economy, and jobs - seems very suspicious, and reeking of ideological imposition. Then Kenney has the gall to say it's not important, worrying about this stuff.

It isn't important. Not being able to pay for the education or health care systems because you are so deeply in debt is what is important.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Originally Posted by Shazam

Does the strawman have a Hitlerstache?

That was not a straw man. It's a reductio ad absurdum, if anything. You have now failed philosophy 101.

[Ozy_Flame]

Originally Posted by LanceUppercut

It isn't important. Not being able to pay for the education or health care systems because you are so deeply in debt is what is important.

The hyperbole, just suck it through my veins

When do basic rights for minority and at-risk groups become important for the government and the UCP? When the Oil and Gas sector has recovered and everyone is back in office towers?

[Weitz]

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

The hyperbole, just suck it through my veins

When do basic rights become important to minority and at-risk groups? When the Oil and Gas sector has recovered?

Are people losing basic rights after the election?

[Ozy_Flame]

Originally Posted by Weitz

Are people losing basic rights after the election?

Yes, the safety zone of GSA's has been compromised and outing a youth is now left to the discretion of the school. This is effectively a rollback of rights to self-determination, and one the LGBTQ community is unsurprisingly responding with alarm to.

Do you want to come with me and chat with LGBTQ youths about what impact this has on their lives so you can get a sense of the seriousness of the situation? Or should we ignore them until after TMX and Line 3 are completed?

[evman150]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

That was not a straw man. It's a reductio ad absurdum, if anything. You have now failed philosophy 101.

It's a straw man (fallacious reductios are a subset of the straw man fallacy).

Your reductio is fallacious because it is question begging - you assume that somehow a museum extolling Hitler's virtues would be legal - which is almost assuredly untrue. You then use this inappropriate assumption as the reductio's cudgel.

You basically laundered your fallacious reasoning.

I don't think you failed Phil 101, but you definitely aced sophistry 101.

[crazy_eoj]

Originally Posted by LanceUppercut

It isn't important. Not being able to pay for the education or health care systems because you are so deeply in debt is what is important.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

Yes, the safety zone of GSA's has been compromised and outing a youth is now left to the discretion of the school. This is effectively a rollback of rights to self-determination, and one the LGBTQ community is unsurprisingly responding with alarm to.

Do you want to come with me and chat with LGBTQ youths about what impact this has on their lives so you can get a sense of the seriousness of the situation? Or should we ignore them until after TMX and Line 3 are completed?

That’s an interesting question as we know that unemployment and reduced prosperity lead to increases in property crime, domestic abuse, suicide substance abuse and a host of other social issues.

So if you were to agree that under Kenny Line 3 and TMX are more likely to operate sooner than under Notley a utilitarian case could be made that more harm is reduced by electing a UCP government.

Now there are a whole bunch of flawed premises in my argument above but in aggregate economic prosperity leads to better social outcomes. So one could ask you how much crime and domestic abuse must people endure to ensure there is a law written on paper that #######s who out kids will find ways around.

Anyway I don’t think you can vilify people for voting UCP. This issue should be part of many considered.

[Yamer]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

That was not a straw man. It's a reductio ad absurdum, if anything. You have now failed philosophy 101.

Originally Posted by evman150

It's a straw man (fallacious reductios are a subset of the straw man fallacy).

Your reductio is fallacious because it is question begging - you assume that somehow a museum extolling Hitler's virtues would be legal - which is almost assuredly untrue. You then use this inappropriate assumption as the reductio's cudgel.

You basically laundered your fallacious reasoning.

I don't think you failed Phil 101, but you definitely aced sophistry 101.

Is Rhetoric part of Philosophy?

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Originally Posted by evman150

Your reductio is fallacious because it is question begging - you assume that somehow a museum extolling Hitler's virtues would be legal - which is almost assuredly untrue. You then use this inappropriate assumption as the reductio's cudgel.

"Almost assuredly untrue"? Why would it be illegal? [DavidKhan] As a constitutional lawyer, I don't agree at all with that statement. [/DavidKhan]

I mean, I can substitute something else that would be horrible yet legal, like establishing a provincial holiday to mourn babies murdered by abortion, or altering the school curriculum to include extensive material on the benefits of authoritarianism as a system of government. The illegality isn't the point. The point is that for most people, there is a line somewhere that a politician or party can cross that will disqualify them as a candidate, no matter how appealing their fiscal policy appears to be. His statement was therefore quite remarkable, and, I suspect, he wouldn't stand by it in the corner cases.

And either way, it still wouldn't be a straw man.

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by IliketoPuck

All I was saying is that in my opinion, things like the "stalking horse" are just politics. Especially so when all of the firestorm news surrounding this is coming out at the time it is.

You are aware this came to light in 2018, right? https://calgaryherald.com/news/polit...MS-UZBQrdxyr-A

After Gill was found stuffing ballots, he came out and said, "take a look at the Callaway campaign if you want to see some real voter fraud and financial wrongdoings" In retrospect, likely mad that the UCP didn't have his back when he knew people were also stuffing the ballot. So he made it very public that an investigation should happen to the Callaway campaign.

Since that time, investigations have been ongoing and fines handed out, threats of jailtime. People who have been named have told their side of the story, like Happy Mann who said Kenney was in the room. The rats have started turning on each other and more and more has been leaked that shows this goes back to 2017 before the leadership race.

The timing is looking more coincidentally, and absolutely has nothing to do with the NDP.

But sure, it was Notley's fault that Kenney's campaign is looking corrupt and been caught lying.