Anonymous Poll: Should homosexuals be allowed to get married?

[Daradon]

I'm actually quite encouraged that the poll split is 82-18. I would have thought it would be closer to 70-30 or worse.

I wonder if this board is slightly more tolerant than the rest of the city. I would guess that it probably is, but it is still a good sign.

[jhunt223]

Get married - yes. Have children - no.

[DrJ]

Originally Posted by jhunt223

Get married - yes. Have children - no.

On grounds that they would make bad parents? Or would it negatively affect the children? How about if they adopted a child? IMO have all the children you want.

Personally, in the poll, I voted no based on religious reasons.

However, I have no problems with gays and will be the first one to call out people when they use the word 'gay' in a demeaning manner. I have many friends who are gay and it really upsets me when they are discriminated against. I know there will be replies inquiring why I support same sex couples but religiously don't support marriage. If I were truly supporting my friends, wouldn't I support their marriage and if I don't support same sex marriage, how can I be supporting gay rights? I know there are many replies in this thread covering this but I believe marriage is something that should remain separate.

[Drury18]

Originally Posted by Sliver

So are gay people all lying when they say it wasn't a choice?

Where did I say they were lying?

I was saying that to state that it has to be genetic solely because no one would choose to be gay due to being unpopular or slapped with a stigma is incredibly short-sighted.

[jhunt223]

Originally Posted by DrJ

On grounds that they would make bad parents? Or would it negatively affect the children? How about if they adopted a child? IMO have all the children you want.

If gays marry it doesn't bother me and it doesn't effect me or any children. I for one am not of the belief that people are either born gay or straight. I think in some instances that is the case but in others something that happens to them throughout the course of their life makes them that way.

I believe that being raised by homosexuals would absolutely increase the risk of you yourself becoming homosexual. Monkey see monkey do. So for this reason i don't believe that homosexuals should be allowed to raise children.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by jhunt223

I believe that being raised by homosexuals would absolutely increase the risk of you yourself becoming homosexual. Monkey see monkey do. So for this reason i don't believe that homosexuals should be allowed to raise children.

Ignoring the whole "being gay is bad, so we have to avoid it" sentiment...

I'm going to conservatively estimate (and correct me if I'm wrong) that ~ 99% of the homosexuals in this country were born to and raised by heterosexuals.

Maybe it's the straight people who shouldn't be raising kids? They raised all the gays, after all. Their monkeys saw, but didn't do.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Frankster

Where is my thank you for not adding more to an already over-populated, materialistic, let me take anything I want society? Where is my thank you for not having kids, which adds to the social benefit that your kids get more of because there are fewer people using them. Do straight couples who choose not to have kids also have to get on their knees and bow to you?

Pretty ridiculous IMO. I'm pretty sure the reason you had kids is because you wanted to, and not because you felt the "need" to further society. You didn't sacrifice your standard of living, you chose to live that way. If you feel like you sacrificed anything, then maybe you shouldn't have those kids...

I derive a net benefit from having kids therefore I chose to have them and pay the associated cost.

You derive a net benefit from others having children therefore it is not unreasonalbe for society to ask that you pay some of the costs associated with them.

As a note this wasn't even a gay/straight issue it was strictly kids / no kids issue in direct response to his post complaining about paying property taxes. As for straight couples without kids having to bow to me, they don't. They do however get to listen to me rant if they ever complain about paying the school portion of property taxes.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by AvsJerk

I'm also tired of almost 50% of my property taxes going to fund the school district...let the parents pony-up the lions share of education.

Did your parents pony-up the lion's share of your education, or did your family milk the system like all those kids soaking up half your property taxes?

Your gripe will be legit the day you've paid back all those childless people who paid for you to get an education.

[Blaster86]

Originally Posted by Daradon

I'm actually quite encouraged that the poll split is 82-18. I would have thought it would be closer to 70-30 or worse.

I wonder if this board is slightly more tolerant than the rest of the city. I would guess that it probably is, but it is still a good sign.

There are more than just Calgarians here.

[Flames Fan, Ph.D.]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

I'm going to conservatively estimate (and correct me if I'm wrong) that ~ 99% of the homosexuals in this country were born to and raised by heterosexuals.

Absolutely, which puts the whole "i feel kids raised by homosexual couples have a higher likelihood to be gay" feeling into very tenuous territory. Why ignore the preponderance of the data in favour of a gut feeling with no solid evidence?

Regardless of one's moral stance with respect to homosexuality, it's currently nothing more than a civil rights issue for our society. Unless you can articulate a persuasive legal argument for why a law abiding citizen should not be afforded the same rights as another law abiding citizen, all the hand wringing about homosexuality is just the fits and starts of a society challenging its inherent biases.

[jhunt223]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

Ignoring the whole "being gay is bad, so we have to avoid it" sentiment...

I'm going to conservatively estimate (and correct me if I'm wrong) that ~ 99% of the homosexuals in this country were born to and raised by heterosexuals.

Maybe it's the straight people who shouldn't be raising kids? They raised all the gays, after all. Their monkeys saw, but didn't do.

That's probably true. Especially since there has been so many more straight people raising children than homosexuals in the past two decades. But if a study was done and 1000 children were raised in a heterosexual environment and 1000 were raised in a homosexual environment i think the numbers would speak for themselves.

And yes ill go ahead and state it... i think homosexuality is wrong and should be avoided if at all possible.. but i have no problem with them marrying if they are that way anyway.

[Thor]

Originally Posted by jhunt223

That's probably true. Especially since there has been so many more straight people raising children than homosexuals in the past two decades. But if a study was done and 1000 children were raised in a heterosexual environment and 1000 were raised in a homosexual environment i think the numbers would speak for themselves.

And yes ill go ahead and state it... i think homosexuality is wrong and should be avoided if at all possible.. but i have no problem with them marrying if they are that way anyway.

At what age did you choose heterosexuality?

[HeartsOfFire]

Originally Posted by Drury18

So because something is unpopular or unaccepted, that means there is no way you could choose to do it?

When it comes to Homosexuality, abso-fataing-lutely. Unlike other controversial topics, Homosexuality has the ability to truly test the mettle of anyone. It's easy to sit on the fence and have an opinion, but a person's true character is brought out into the light once it is discovered that someone close to them is gay, whether family or friend. Despite the appearance of being accepted in today's society it still has the potential to destroy familial and friendship bonds. Why anyone would put themselves through that risk for the sake of choice is sheer stupidity. They put themselves through that risk because they have NO other choice, and they can't hide it forever. Better to be out with it and be true to oneself rather than live a lie.

Life is all about choices.

This sentence is incomplete. Life is all about choices once you're aware of the life that you're dealt. If life were all about choices, I assure you I would never have chosen to live a life where I have to work to survive. I would have chosen to be born into wealth so vast that I would never have to work a day in my life.

I never chose to be born a white Canadian heterosexual male to a pair of loving, middle class parents with German and Russian roots, but thank the fates that I was. Though my life isn't a walk down Easy Street from cradle to grave, it could have been a lot worse.

Some people are just less influenced by what others think to be able to make the choice to be homosexual or whatever else they need to be to be themselves.

In this, you are correct to a point. For example, I don't give a toss what complete strangers think of me in public, because in my environment, the odds of me running into any complete stranger at any given time a second time before I die is so low, their opinion of me is inconsequential. On the other hand, I care about the opinions of those close to me because of our mutual bonds, and for them I am on my best behaviour. I engage in activities I never would normally engage in for their sake.

Now having said this, if I was to walk around Chinook mall with a T-shirt that displayed "Achievement unlocked: Left the house," I will get a number of different reactions: Most people wouldn't give a toss, while a small handful of people would either get a chuckle, scream aloud and ask where they can get a shirt like that, or call me an "Xbox (vulgar homosexual slang)." If I were to where a rainbow lapel on my shirt and cross paths with a bigot, any number of things could happen. If homosexuality were a choice, I would never adopt such a lifestyle for that reason alone. If Homosexuality is a hard-wired genetic trait -- which I believe it to be -- I accept this as a fact of life and it becomes something that I have to learn to deal with.

[SeoulFire]

I don't care.

The more interesting question for me is should they (or anybody) have to.

[Flashpoint]

Originally Posted by DrJ

Personally, in the poll, I voted no based on religious reasons.

A good reason everyone should be glad religion is on the way out in developed society. Basically, you just said you don't support equality, because your "faith" tells you so.

I view you the same way I view people who think interracial marriages should be prohibited.

However, I have no problems with gays and will be the first one to call out people when they use the word 'gay' in a demeaning manner. I have many friends who are gay and it really upsets me when they are discriminated against.

You don't want them to have the same rights as you. You are discriminating. Sorry. You're intolerant. It clearly doesn't upset you enough.

I'm not saying you're a bad person. Just that your belief system promotes inequality, and is therefore very fudged up.

I know there are many replies in this thread covering this but I believe marriage is something that should remain separate.

"Separate but equal" right?

[Thor]

I recall an Atheist forums poll last year, I think the old Dawkins forums where they had this same poll.

It was 99% yes, 1% no. About 900 votes.

In our other thread about this topic, in regards to Iceland unanimously voting for equal marriage for all, we had a long long discussion in where no real good reason was given for denying these rights to gays.

So to this point no logical reason other than the government shouldn't be in the business of marriage to begin with; that does not use the discussion ender of "my religion says so."

So again thanks to an old 2000yr old book and other old books we have to kick those against this dragging and screaming into the modern world. Its sad some people truly believe that book has the final word on morals, apparently they haven't read it or any of the major religion's books.

[photon]

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

I'm saying that boys go through a stage in their lives where a knot in a tree stump will give them a woody. Those intense urges which ultimately is to stimulate to ejaculation can be satisfied in unhealthy avenues.

Like what? Masturbation? Masturbation leads to homosexuality?

And most girls don't ejaculate, so this doesn't help you much there.

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

Those unhealthy avenues can become deeply ingrained habits. How often can we trace a rapists or pedophiles behaviour to that vulnerable age?

Lol, what? How often... You tell me, you're the one making this connection between sexual behaviour of a kid and rapists. Any actual support for this story?

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

Often we find there has been sexual abuse against them but, certainly not always.

But is the rate of sexual abuse there any higher than elsewhere, again you'll have to support your story.

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

That intense desire to orgasm appears to be enough motivation for some.

So that's all it is, an intense desire for orgasm? So you are saying that you could have an orgasm while having sex with a man? Or a child? Sexual arousal tends not to happen with things that you find strongly sexually unattractive.

This story makes little sense, and I don't see any support for it.

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

There has been less research on enviromental conditioning than there has on a possible genetic link.

Really? You've done a meta-study of all the studies then? How many studies fall into researching environmental factors and how many fall into genetic factors?

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

Niether one should be thrown out before the facts are in.

Of course, I don't think anyone throws either of them out. It's not really relevant to the question though, even if it was 100% voluntary.

Originally Posted by jhunt223

I believe that being raised by homosexuals would absolutely increase the risk of you yourself becoming homosexual. Monkey see monkey do. So for this reason i don't believe that homosexuals should be allowed to raise children.

What do you base your belief on? Just a four word summary of human psychology and development? What about the research I posted earlier that suggests that there isn't a correlation?

Originally Posted by jhunt223

But if a study was done and 1000 children were raised in a heterosexual environment and 1000 were raised in a homosexual environment i think the numbers would speak for themselves.

They have done studies, and the numbers do speak for themselves.. there's no increased incident of people being homosexual after being raised in a homosexual environment.

[SeoulFire]

Going to preface this by saying I am not the least bit religious and that I do not know the thought process of those who are - just speculation here with few assumptions.

If marriage is viewed as a religious ceremony and homosexuality is not accepted in the religious views, how can one with (strong) faith accept gay marriage? I don't think it has ever been accepted by religion that people pick and choose what parts to believe and which to disregard on an individual or case-by-case basis.

A 'tolerant' person with faith must then choose between questioning their religious foundation or perhaps requesting that a different word be used.

Also, why the hypocrisy over words? It seems like most PC words are a result of protecting (for lack of a better word) special interest/identifiable groups - like the word "gay" and with reference to gays. Why is this consideration not given to religion and the historically religious ceremony of "marriage"? Does the PC non-religious crowd take offence to "God!!" or "Jesus Christ!" and try to educate those who use them how they can offend and be hurtful to some? I doubt it that this happens much if at all.

Originally Posted by Flashpoint

A good reason everyone should be glad religion is on the way out in developed society. Basically, you just said you don't support equality, because your "faith" tells you so.

I view you the same way I view people who think interracial marriages should be prohibited.

No. They said that they don't support the ritual of marriage - I did not see anything regarding legal rights/obligations of a couple. I believe it was you you equated 'right to marry' with 'equality'.

You don't want them to have the same rights as you. You are discriminating. Sorry. You're intolerant. It clearly doesn't upset you enough.

I did not read their previous posts but I do not see that in their answer. Perhaps the objection (once again) is to the use of the word and ceremony but not the rights that are artificially attached by the state that go with it. It also appears that you are extremely intolerant of religion.

I'm not saying you're a bad person. Just that your belief system promotes inequality, and is therefore very fudged up.

"Separate but equal" right?

For the record, I am married but I don't believe in marriage (legal or religious) but I really did not have a choice.

[Cowboy89]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

Ignoring the whole "being gay is bad, so we have to avoid it" sentiment...

I'm going to conservatively estimate (and correct me if I'm wrong) that ~ 99% of the homosexuals in this country were born to and raised by heterosexuals.

Maybe it's the straight people who shouldn't be raising kids? They raised all the gays, after all. Their monkeys saw, but didn't do.

As an aside. I theorize that the only way homosexual couples 'increase' the chances of having a homosexual child is that homosexuality is most likely undermeasured in the general population due to closeted and confused gay people raised by ardently staright parents. Homosexual parents would obviously be more encouraging of a child to live out their orientation.

[Flashpoint]

Originally Posted by SeoulFire

No. They said that they don't support the ritual of marriage - I did not see anything regarding legal rights/obligations of a couple. I believe it was you you equated 'right to marry' with 'equality'.

Correct - I have the right to marry. You have the right to marry. Criminals have the right to marry.

But for some reason, Gay's shouldn't have that exact same right?

How is that equality?

I did not read their previous posts but I do not see that in their answer. Perhaps the objection (once again) is to the use of the word and ceremony but not the rights that are artificially attached by the state that go with it.

They are adults of legal age, and citizens recognized by this country. They should be treated exactly the same as everyone else. You can't discriminate on the basis of hair color, religious orientation, or gender. You shouldn't be able to deny a right based on sexual orientation either.

Word and ceremony may be seen as a small issue by you - but the fundamental point is equality means everyone is treated the same.

It also appears that you are extremely intolerant of religion.

I support any religion that is loving and inclusive. Sadly when you have people like DrJ above saying "I have no problem with Gays except my religion tells me they shouldn't have the same rights I should" it's pretty clear there is a rational disconnect.

Fortunately the church can no longer say the same thing about interracial marriages. In 20 years, the issue of gay marriage will be viewed the same way.