Bow River Flow

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by jammies

No, I'm advocating that people actually complain about important civic issues, like the incessant suburban sprawl and vast and expensive interchanges that are seen as "necessary" - yet are not - and cost orders of magnitude more than the issues people DO seem to latch onto like pedestrian bridges and Sunday road closures. You see being against Druh's plan as a symbolic gesture against incompetence, I see it as a bunch of Quixotes battling a pinata and mostly losing. .

The presence of other issues doesn't invalidate concerns about this specific issue.

[MarchHare]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

All good reasons to shut a road down. Again - that's the key - having a good enough reason. The issue at hand is the fact that some think this reason - just wasn't nearly good enough.

And others think this reason was good enough. The experts in the city's transportation department determined that Memorial Drive could be reduced to two lanes on a weekend afternoon in the summer without it having a large negative effect on traffic flow, so why shouldn't the road have been closed?

[zuluking]

The topic of this thread is the Bow River Flow. And the posters on the topic have differing opinions. However, those that support it seem stuck on using fallacious arguments like emotive language "you don't live here, your opinion is invalid" or future consequences "someday it'll be like the other festival areas, your opinion is invalid" or anecdote "i was there and it was no big deal for me, your opinion is invalid"

Oops. March Hare has a good point. My bad.

[Traditional_Ale]

Originally Posted by 4X4

I dunno. Just some of the comments in this thread come off as stick-up-ass-ish to me. Calgary seems to have this attitude where rules must be followed at all times or else people lose their bearings and don't know what to do except complain. Just have fun. Enjoy the randomness of an event like this. If it was a complete disaster, it'd be cancelled for next year. Not everything needs to be planned to the last detail. As I said before, some of the best parties are borne out of spontaneuity. And in a city that doesn't have very many things going on, whats wrong with exploring new ideas?

That's pretty much all I have to say. Hope I didn't offend any of you guys that I usually agree with.

I wonder how many of the nazis in this thread partied on the Red Mile?

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

And others think this reason was good enough. The experts in the city's transportation department determined that Memorial Drive could be reduced to two lanes on a weekend afternoon in the summer without it having a large negative effect on traffic flow, so why shouldn't the road have been closed?

Going around in circles but just because you can shut a road doesn't mean you should. Even if the impact was minimal, the upside was even less.

[Bigtime]

If you partied on the Red Mile you were a Nazi?

[octothorp]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

Going around in circles but just because you can shut a road doesn't mean you should. Even if the impact was minimal, the upside was even less.

I think you're right, this is really where the argument turns circular, but weighing the negative impact vs. the potential upside is such a judgement call. I certainly think that the potential of this festival outweighs the extra minute it takes to travel via downtown, though having six blocks of gridlocked traffic was less than ideal (though I still insist these people had nobody to blame but themselves).
The disruption was minimal and festival was minimal. This year was the absolute worst imaginable value proposition for the festival (I'm not going to sugar coat it and pretend it was a great time - it wasn't). But while the potential for the festival can increase exponentially, the potential disruption increases only slightly (and could actually be decreased through better planning and management).

[Traditional_Ale]

Originally Posted by bigtime

if you partied on the red mile you were a nazi?

Eihn team!
Eihn cup!
Eihn Sutter!

Go Flames! Go Flames! Go Flames!

[Superflyer]

I think the biggest thing that is setting people off is that the road was closed and was not used outside of a dozen people. If booths and bounce houses were set up on the road, or if there were road hockey games played I think that it would have been a different story, but instead Memorial was put down to two lanes for no real reason. They could have had the festival and still left memorial alone.

[octothorp]

Originally Posted by Superflyer

I think the biggest thing that is setting people off is that the road was closed and was not used outside of a dozen people. If booths and bounce houses were set up on the road, or if there were road hockey games played I think that it would have been a different story, but instead Memorial was put down to two lanes for no real reason. They could have had the festival and still left memorial alone.

It wasn't ideally done, but the problem is that if you've got the festival happening on the bike-paths with no alternative route, then you'll get cyclists speeding through the festival area where there are children playing and generally heavy congestion. So I get the logic behind that; I think, though, that they would have been better to put more activities on the road and leave the bike-paths for cyclists.
Although the big problem that I pointed out with the site from day 1: you cannot even see the river from Memorial through most of this stretch; given a choice, where are you going to walk? Along the top of the flood barrier, where there's a pedestrian path and where you can look at the river, or on a pyloned road beside a couple lanes of gridlocked traffic? For being called the Bow River Flow, this seemed to have absolutely nothing to do with the river.

[zuluking]

Originally Posted by Superflyer

I think the biggest thing that is setting people off is that the road was closed and was not used outside of a dozen people. If booths and bounce houses were set up on the road, or if there were road hockey games played I think that it would have been a different story, but instead Memorial was put down to two lanes for no real reason. They could have had the festival and still left memorial alone.

Except that they can close it when making an application, so why not. You don't live there so why do you care? Hardly anyone uses Memorial Drive on Sunday, so no big deal. And the point was to be disruptive to traffic for no apparent reason so as to draw attention to the inner-city environmentally-moral high ground the local denizens hold over the rest of the suburban, mouth breathing neanderthals (as prescribed by the chief granola-crunching alderman of this city on behalf of aforementioned higher spirits.)

[Bigtime]

Originally Posted by Superflyer

I think the biggest thing that is setting people off is that the road was closed and was not used outside of a dozen people. If booths and bounce houses were set up on the road, or if there were road hockey games played I think that it would have been a different story, but instead Memorial was put down to two lanes for no real reason. They could have had the festival and still left memorial alone.

Were you there on Sunday?

Because I sure saw more than a dozen people using the road, people playing street hockey, hopscotch and a bunch of other games on the pavement (all within about 30 minutes, not even the duration of the festival).

Or do you subscribe to the Ric McIver approach of just saying something without actually being there to witness it?

[jammies]

Originally Posted by zuluking

The topic of this thread is the Bow River Flow. And the posters on the topic have differing opinions. However, those that support it seem stuck on using fallacious arguments like emotive language "you don't live here, your opinion is invalid" or future consequences "someday it'll be like the other festival areas, your opinion is invalid" or anecdote "i was there and it was no big deal for me, your opinion is invalid"

As opposed to the detractors who have entirely logic-based arguments like "the road closure is a waste of city council time" - when city council actually doesn't have anything to do with road closures; "the so-called festival wasn't worth closing the road for" - when the complainant didn't actually go to the festival or apparently are the type of person that would go to one; or "everything Druh Farrel does is stupid" - apparently an ideological perspective or irrational personal antipathy.

Once the logical fallacies are exposed and yet reiterated in post after post, satire becomes not only appropriate, but required. Check my signature for further explication.

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by jammies

As opposed to the detractors who have entirely logic-based arguments like "the road closure is a waste of city council time" - when city council actually doesn't have anything to do with road closures; "the so-called festival wasn't worth closing the road for" - when the complainant didn't actually go to the festival or apparently are the type of person that would go to one; or "everything Druh Farrel does is stupid" - apparently an ideological perspective or irrational personal antipathy.
.

That's a pretty poor representation of a lot of the arguments being put forth.

As for your signature - I recognize that other people have put thought and reason into their opinions whether or not I agree with it. I wouldn't be so arrogant to assume that someone didn't "reason themselves into their opinion.".

[Superflyer]

I did not really want to get into this discussion since it seems to have stalled on the same arguments on both sides. I just figured that I would say what my thoughts were and why some people may have been upset. But then two people try to call me out with the same arguments through out the thread so what the heck....

Originally Posted by zuluking

Except that they can close it when making an application, so why not. You don't live there so why do you care? Hardly anyone uses Memorial Drive on Sunday, so no big deal. And the point was to be disruptive to traffic for no apparent reason so as to draw attention to the inner-city environmentally-moral high ground the local denizens hold over the rest of the suburban, mouth breathing neanderthals (as prescribed by the chief granola-crunching alderman of this city on behalf of aforementioned higher spirits.)

You can close a road by filling out a piece of paper so why not??? I think that I will close down south bound deerfoot between 16th and memorial because it only takes filling out a paper.
Yes you are right I do not live there, but I care because I do drive through there sometimes, and yes even on Sundays. Just because someone does not live in an area does not mean they are not affected by something that happens in that area.
Hardly anyone uses Memorial on the weekends? It has been said that they average 850 cars an hour, with the festival running 10-4 that is 6 hours and that equals 5100 cars. This is also not including the time to setup and clean up. So say at an average of lets say two people per car that is over 10,000 people. Yep nobody at all. Sure it is less then 5:00 on a Tuesday but that is still quite a few people. Also if you add in the extra people that came to the festival that adds to it.
As for the whole mouth breather comments, I will just leave that alone.

Originally Posted by Bigtime

Were you there on Sunday?

Because I sure saw more than a dozen people using the road, people playing street hockey, hopscotch and a bunch of other games on the pavement (all within about 30 minutes, not even the duration of the festival).

Or do you subscribe to the Ric McIver approach of just saying something without actually being there to witness it?

No I was not there on Sunday because I heard about it on here and checked out the site. After reading about it I realized that it was not worth my time so I stayed home and did yard work.

So for the 7 blocks that were closed off you saw a dozen people on the road, holy crap I take everything back, how did they move around?

I do not subscribe to the "Ric McIvor" junk, I read about it and saw pictures of the event including the line of traffic and people on the paths and road. Just because you were not there does not mean that you do not know anything about it. Do you believe things you see in the news? Were you there to say that they are true? If not how do you know they are right?

For the few people that live in the area and posted that they were not affected, good for you, you know more then one way through your neighborhood, good for you. What about the people that had no idea about this festival and just got stuck in traffic? Sure some may have a GPS and can find a faster way through the neighborhood, but what about the ones that don't?

And the people that say this was not planned by the city, as many people have said in this thread, there were many booths on different city divisions and such. When is the last festival you were at that had so many city booths. Sure there are a few booths at some festivals but not the level that was at this one.

[jammies]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

The reason people object to this because it is yet another example of the flawed mindset and poor decision making that is continually happening at City Hall right now. There's a lot more examples and people are tired of it.

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

That's a pretty poor representation of a lot of the arguments being put forth.

Maybe I'm misreading what you said in the first quote, but perhaps you can explain to me how a "another example of a flawed mindset and poor decision making that is continually happening at City Hall right now" is not refuted by "city council actually doesn't have anything to do with road closures".

It's very simple. Any citizen could've had the road closed if that person had a mind to. That it was Druh reflects only on her, and not the City or the City's methods.

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

As for your signature - I recognize that other people have put thought and reason into their opinions whether or not I agree with it. I wouldn't be so arrogant to assume that someone didn't "reason themselves into their opinion.".

I have plenty of opinions that I haven't necessarily based on anything logical either. Everyone does. Arrogance would be thinking that because I - or anyone else - has an opinion, that it's necessarily an informed or valid one.

As far as other people's opinions go, the only thing I can evaluate them upon is whether or not they are susceptible to reasonable argument - if the answer to a refutation is merely repeating that argument or varying its wording, is it wrong to assume that the opinion in question is therefore not based upon reason, but rather emotion, prejudice, or ideology? I don't think it is - one of the great failings of our culture is that "everyone deserves to be heard" is interpreted as "everyone has something worth saying."

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by jammies

Maybe I'm misreading what you said in the first quote, but perhaps you can explain to me how a "another example of a flawed mindset and poor decision making that is continually happening at City Hall right now" is not refuted by "city council actually doesn't have anything to do with road closures".

City Hall refers to more than just council - in fact one of the biggest problems with our this city operates is the city administration. Moreover, the original idea for this whole thing came from a council member...so in that sense it is about how or council operates and come up with these ideas.

Originally Posted by jammies

As far as other people's opinions go, the only thing I can evaluate them upon is whether or not they are susceptible to reasonable argument - if the answer to a refutation is merely repeating that argument or varying its wording, is it wrong to assume that the opinion in question is therefore not based upon reason, but rather emotion, prejudice, or ideology? I don't think it is - one of the great failings of our culture is that "everyone deserves to be heard" is interpreted as "everyone has something worth saying."

Yes I think it is wrong to assume what the methods were that someone used to arrive at their opinions.

[Jedi Ninja]

Originally Posted by 4X4

I don't know what more can be said on this topic. The two sides will never agree. I'm just stunned that so many people are so vehemently against this thing when it's harmless, free, has support from those who are directly affected, and has minimal impact on the rest of the city.
.

It's easy to say that if you weren't actually there, but if you WERE there you'd be singing a different tune. Trying to ride my bike through there was nuts. There were people walking slowly in the fast lane everywhere, and then I got stuck behind some old lady in a walker who wouldn't pull over and let me by even after I rang my bell. So, I dropped it into low gear and went around her on the grass. As I went past, I got a glimpse of her giving me the middle finger as I went by.

But I'm glad you're joining the cause of the anti-car movement. I am organizing an event next Sunday where we get a bunch of people together and drive slowly on the fast lane on Deerfoot so that we can all slow down and collectively reflect on our good fortune. It shouldn't be a big deal because we're doing it on Sunday, when people should be at church, anyway, not driving around willy-nilly on the Deerfoot at high speeds.

Merry Christmas. And I say that only because my children were already cutting things out of the Sears 2009 Wish Book today that they want for Christmas, and I noticed also that Costco is full of Christmas decorations.

[jammies]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

City Hall refers to more than just council - in fact one of the biggest problems with our this city operates is the city administration. Moreover, the original idea for this whole thing came from a council member...so in that sense it is about how or council operates and come up with these ideas.

So what you're implying is that the administration should have told Druh that her idea was silly and she couldn't have her road closure? 'Cause otherwise I'm not sure what exactly the administration did wrong here, they followed the process to grant said road closure impartially - which is as it should be, isn't it?

As far as coming up with ideas goes, what process should they be using? From what I see, council members come up with ideas and/or present them from their constituents, then they are debated as to their worth or appropriateness, and then they are voted upon. Both the operation of and the genesis of city initiatives are unremarkable and ordinary; I'm not seeing where the process is the problem, as it is the same, time-tested process almost every other municipal council in the world uses.

Should Bronco be brandishing the iron fist for council members who don't agree with his agenda of roads, roads, roads for the people? Should the voters be forced to endure a "do-over" when they vote for ditzy or demagogue alderpeople? Open warfare between the suburbs and the core until one stands bloodily victorious?

That's the issue I have with this brouhaha: there's all this outrage, yet it seems to be directed nowhere useful. What alternative strategy - other than just not voting Druh in next election - is going to stop this kind of "problem" (which, to reiterate, I don't think is a problem in the first place) from occurring again? Does anyone on the anti-closure side have a point other than that they don't like the idea and wish somehow it could have been prevented by some unnamed and unimaginable power?

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

Yes I think it is wrong to assume what the methods were that someone used to arrive at their opinions.

Although this is really a broader philosophical question, I will say that all of us are forced to act from imperfect knowledge. I don't *know* what methods people use to arrive at their opinions, but that doesn't mean it isn't possible to make a reasonably probable guess. If that makes me an assumptionist, I guess I'll live with it.

I also don't believe that it's possible to NEVER make value judgments about the validity of other people's opinions; if I tell you my "opinion" is that aliens abduct all world leaders and implant them with control mechanisms in order to guide human society into a willing slavery, do you think that opinion was arrived at from a process of careful logic and unshakable fact? If not - why not? I submit that you use the same "wrong" process I do, and that you resort to the same "wrong" assumptions, you just don't think they apply to as broad a range of opinions as I do.

[jammies]

Originally Posted by Jedi Ninja

But I'm glad you're joining the cause of the anti-car movement. I am organizing an event next Sunday where we get a bunch of people together and drive slowly on the fast lane on Deerfoot so that we can all slow down and collectively reflect on our good fortune.

Sorry, I already have my application in for rocket car races. Unless you're interested in a dual-purpose closure, where your people can drive slow in the left lane and my rocket jockeys will strew their flaming wreckage all over the median after destroying them with gatling lasers.

I do like your satire though - well done! Satire vs satire in a war for ironic domination!