Teachers are at the end of their rope.

[puckhog]

Originally Posted by #-3

I think I somewhat agree with Mr Coffee line of thought, without agreeing with his anger about it.

Funny, I don’t read him as angry. His posts in this thread are fairly neutral until a couple of posters took the position that the summers off are not a perk, or are a complicated issue. He (IMO, rightly) saw that as a ridiculous position. The time off is a massive perk of the teaching profession. It comes with counterbalancing factors? Sure, but that’s not unique to teachers, that’s just life and certainly doesn’t mean it’s not a perk.

The time off I get is also encumbered with cost of travel, child care and the suspension of work I have to resume and catch up on when I return. Does any of that mean it’s not a perk, or I’d rather not have it? Of course not!

Maybe he painted with too broad a brush after that (the out of touch comment), but when you have people arguing that the time off teachers get in the summer is not a perk, it does seem a bit out of touch.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Sliver

Oh totally, dude. I know so many teachers that it's weird. One of my friends waitressed (she's super social) for the first 10 years of her career in the summers. Another friend maintains this park/fountain thing in his neighbourhood. One more works at her family's business. My uncle was a teacher and did handyman work every summer. But, anyway, busy week and I don't want to get dragged into this.

Or....they could take up football!

I had so many substitute teachers that were Stampeders players it was borderline ridiculous.

Then I worked with a bunch more at Greyhound!

[IliketoPuck]

Originally Posted by peter12

Ah, the semi-annual CP moan-fest about teachers.

Not to be confused with the annual “teachers get too much vacation” or quarterly “teachers get paid too much” threads.

Brought to you of course by the intellectual titans of Alberta industry. While they may collectively have zero classroom experience, they fortunately do have decades of experience criticizing a profession they know nothing about from the safety of their keyboards, ensconced in ivory towers far away from the frontlines and all those germ ridden children.

But, sure, Jan. Your kid failing at basic life skills and simple mathematics is the teachers fault. Not decades of systemic underinvestment in a system that is now held together with thoughts, prayers, and the pure uniformed vitriol of the masses.

Keep up the mediocre thread creation, CP. Looking forward to the next iteration at the September quarterly “teachers get paid too much” meeting.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by Locke

Or....they could take up football!

I had so many substitute teachers that were Stampeders players it was borderline ridiculous.

Then I worked with a bunch more at Greyhound!

I always like your Greyhound stories. I legitimately found that place scary, although I only ever went by myself when I was, like, in junior high. I'd go alone to Red Deer to visit my buddy that moved there. It was so scuzzy and there were so many weirdos. Maybe I even saw you and thought you were a weirdo...we'll never know

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by IliketoPuck

Not to be confused with the annual “teachers get too much vacation” or quarterly “teachers get paid too much” threads.

Brought to you of course by the intellectual titans of Alberta industry. While they may collectively have zero classroom experience, they fortunately do have decades of experience criticizing a profession they know nothing about from the safety of their keyboards, ensconced in ivory towers far away from the frontlines and all those germ ridden children.

But, sure, Jan. Your kid failing at basic life skills and simple mathematics is the teachers fault. Not decades of systemic underinvestment in a system that is now held together with thoughts, prayers, and the pure uniformed vitriol of the masses.

Keep up the mediocre thread creation, CP. Looking forward to the next iteration at the September quarterly “teachers get paid too much” meeting.

lol, what's this guy talking about? Calm your tits, dude.

[IliketoPuck]

Originally Posted by Sliver

lol, what's this guy talking about? Calm your tits, dude.

You and I have been around CP long enough to know that any teacher related thread inevitably ends up the same.

I could look up a post I made in one of them almost a decade ago that’s probably as relevant then as it is now. Double or nothing it was a reply to one of you, cliff or Peter.

[opendoor]

Originally Posted by Sliver

Well, not everyone. I don't (self employed).

Only if you earn your money through dividends, capital gains, or something like that. Any salary paid from a corporation to its owner and any business income from a sole proprietorship is pensionable money, except you have to pay both employer and employee shares in that situation. I'm self employed too, but I have to pay almost 12% of my net business income to CPP.

I'm not disputing most people get CPP and OAS, but it's just worth point out that teachers will be living off 70% of their income since that's the relevant number required to plan your life around.

Sure, but if 25 of the 70% is coming from something everyone is statutorily entitled to, then it's kind of irrelevant. The point being, if anyone devoted 10-12% of their gross salary to investments for 30-35 years like everyone in the pension plan has to, they'd be able to withdraw a pretty significant portion of their working income level as well without any real risk. The employer matching definitely makes it a good deal for teachers, but people talk like the pension is free money, when it's really just a few percentage points higher matching than most other professional jobs offer.

And if people without work pensions really want security, they can always just buy an annuity. For a 55-60 year old to get $50K a year for life, they'd need to contribute about $1M to an annuity. That's a lot of money, but not particularly crazy if someone contributed 10-12% of a teachers' salary to investments for 30-35 years.

[you&me]

Originally Posted by IliketoPuck

Not to be confused with the annual “teachers get too much vacation” or quarterly “teachers get paid too much” threads.

Brought to you of course by the intellectual titans of Alberta industry. While they may collectively have zero classroom experience, they fortunately do have decades of experience criticizing a profession they know nothing about from the safety of their keyboards, ensconced in ivory towers far away from the frontlines and all those germ ridden children.

But, sure, Jan. Your kid failing at basic life skills and simple mathematics is the teachers fault. Not decades of systemic underinvestment in a system that is now held together with thoughts, prayers, and the pure uniformed vitriol of the masses.

Keep up the mediocre thread creation, CP. Looking forward to the next iteration at the September quarterly “teachers get paid too much” meeting.

One man's mediocre is another chat forum's most active thread for the last few days

The thing about teaching that makes it different for the general public to comment on compared to other jobs is that in general, by way of being students and having children, we all have far more exposure to teachers and the education system, than say lawyering and the legal profession.

To think that 'Joe public' isn't equipped to have an opinion and discuss it comes across, at best, as really defensive.

[IliketoPuck]

Originally Posted by you&me

One man's mediocre is another chat forum's most active thread for the last few days

The thing about teaching that makes it different for the general public to comment on compared to other jobs is that in general, by way of being students and having children, we all have far more exposure to teachers and the education system, than say lawyering and the legal profession.

To think that 'Joe public' isn't equipped to have an opinion and discuss it comes across, at best, as really defensive.

Ah.

My sincere apologies.

You’re right, of course. The general public, based on levels of interaction, should know best.

I went to the doctors the other day. Based on my personal interaction I think I have a pretty good handle on some changes that should be implemented.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Sliver

I always like your Greyhound stories. I legitimately found that place scary, although I only ever went by myself when I was, like, in junior high. I'd go alone to Red Deer to visit my buddy that moved there. It was so scuzzy and there were so many weirdos. Maybe I even saw you and thought you were a weirdo...we'll never know

Well I think you're somewhat older than me so I doubt it, I was there paying for University tuition from 2005-2008, although if you were going to Red Deer you may well have been on my Dad's bus as he drove the Local North milk-run for many years.

But man...'scuzzy place to work' doesnt even cover the half of it.

Greyhound...you'll never find a more wretched Hive of Scum and Villainy.

I worked there for 3 years loading buses and trucks and it was, without a doubt, the hands-down worst job I've ever had...but I got lots of stories.

Very few dull days at the ol' Dirty Dawg.

[calgarygeologist]

Originally Posted by Locke

Or....they could take up football!

I had so many substitute teachers that were Stampeders players it was borderline ridiculous.

Then I worked with a bunch more at Greyhound!

I remember having one of the wrestling Harts as a substitute a few times. I don't recall which one now but it seemed really cool as a kid.

[fotze2]

Originally Posted by calgarygeologist

I remember having one of the wrestling Harts as a substitute a few times. I don't recall which one now but it seemed really cool as a kid.

I think Keith Hart was a sub for us a few times.

[Derek Sutton]

Originally Posted by fotze2

I think Keith Hart was a sub for us a few times.

Likely Bruce as he was a sub. Keith was a firefighter with the city, don’t think he was a sub prior to that.

[Derek Sutton]

Originally Posted by Sliver

This is wild. There aren't minuses to having summers off...particularly in Canada where so many vacation spots and activities are seasonal. How many campgrounds open for May Long and close after September Long, as an example? Half the year roads aren't even at their safest for travel. Kids are off during the summer (for families), so nothing could be more convenient. What time of year can you enjoy your yard, paint your house, build your fence, go bike riding in Fish Creek, etc. etc.?

And then in winter...who doesn't want a couple weeks off around Christmas to spend time with loved ones?

To say their time off doesn't coincide with the best times of year for vacation days is, honestly, super dumb.



I hear this and I always wonder if people are saying it with a straight face of just trying to get a rise out of the rest of us who started work with two weeks off a year (it's three, now), but had to work the first 12 months before being eligible for any time off at all.

Burnout can hit anyone, but barely anybody has two months off to look forward to just a couple months after their last week off, which was just a couple months after their last two weeks off.

I've been silent in this thread as I'm not in the mood for being the poster boy for pointing out that being a teacher is a terrific career (for whatever reason teachers want us to think they have it rough, which I believe is their union trying to incite them, but whatever), but nobody should be humouring this ridiculous notion that teachers don't have absolutely outstanding holiday benefits. They run the same schedule seven-year-olds run FFS.

Best comment in the whole thread.

[you&me]

Originally Posted by IliketoPuck

Ah.

My sincere apologies.

You’re right, of course. The general public, based on levels of interaction, should know best.

I went to the doctors the other day. Based on my personal interaction I think I have a pretty good handle on some changes that should be implemented.

Well, based on that, I'm glad you don't teach my children. Your reading comprehension is atrocious.

I never said the "general public, based on levels of interaction, should know best"... I said it's not unreasonable to think, based on levels of interaction, that the general public has an opinion and can discuss teachers and education, more so than most professions.

If you have as much experience with seeing the doctor, as I do with teachers and the education system, after being a student myself and my kids having a cumulative 12 years of schooling, then I'm sorry, you must be very unhealthy.

That being said, yes, if you were at the "doctors" the other day and had some ideas for changes that could be implemented, it's probably worth hearing your opinion.

My lord, it's a good thing not all teachers are so defensive.

[Mr.Coffee]

Originally Posted by puckhog

Funny, I don’t read him as angry. His posts in this thread are fairly neutral until a couple of posters took the position that the summers off are not a perk, or are a complicated issue. He (IMO, rightly) saw that as a ridiculous position. The time off is a massive perk of the teaching profession. It comes with counterbalancing factors? Sure, but that’s not unique to teachers, that’s just life and certainly doesn’t mean it’s not a perk.

The time off I get is also encumbered with cost of travel, child care and the suspension of work I have to resume and catch up on when I return. Does any of that mean it’s not a perk, or I’d rather not have it? Of course not!

Maybe he painted with too broad a brush after that (the out of touch comment), but when you have people arguing that the time off teachers get in the summer is not a perk, it does seem a bit out of touch.

Thanks. Take a look at this comment right here...

Originally Posted by IliketoPuck

Not to be confused with the annual “teachers get too much vacation” or quarterly “teachers get paid too much” threads.

Brought to you of course by the intellectual titans of Alberta industry. While they may collectively have zero classroom experience, they fortunately do have decades of experience criticizing a profession they know nothing about from the safety of their keyboards, ensconced in ivory towers far away from the frontlines and all those germ ridden children.

But, sure, Jan. Your kid failing at basic life skills and simple mathematics is the teachers fault. Not decades of systemic underinvestment in a system that is now held together with thoughts, prayers, and the pure uniformed vitriol of the masses.

Keep up the mediocre thread creation, CP. Looking forward to the next iteration at the September quarterly “teachers get paid too much” meeting.

and tell me this isn't an extremely defensive 'play the victim-card' mentality?

First off, as has been pointed out, nobody said anything this guy is saying. I'm not sure they are even reading the thread. But this type of reply and attitude (which is about the 3rd or 4th reply in this type of spirit) is precisely what I am trying to portray.

Teachers can think everybody has an opinion, but they should know that everybody has an opinion about everything and they shouldn't feel so targeted.

Also, I am not "angry" at all, just a bizarre misread on what I have written. A poster said that having all that time off "wasn't a perk". Complaining that people have no right to comment on education systems because they are not experts in it does not in any way counter the fact that it was an absurd and ridiculous comment. Spurs played it best here, and I agree with him. Not every perk is ultra incredible and there is nuance. Completely correct, and goes for all professions.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by Derek Sutton

Likely Bruce as he was a sub. Keith was a firefighter with the city, don’t think he was a sub prior to that.

I had Keith as a sub in grade 9, which was around '86

[Mr.Coffee]

Originally Posted by #-3

I think I somewhat agree with Mr Coffee line of thought, without agreeing with his anger about it.

I think it is well agreed even among teachers that they are relatively fairly compensated financially for the type of work they do.

It's been posted in this thread, teachers have 900 hours of classroom time and 300 hours of non classroom time on their schedule. A typical and comparable job is going to have 1650 -1900 hours depending on vacation time offered.

With their 190-200 working days annually, they would need to work 2-4 additional hours every single working day to have the equivalent of a full time job, I am certain that many if not most teachers do put in 3 or 4 hours of extra perp / marking work on a regular basis, but knowing the teachers I know I find it very hard to believe they are doing that 5 days / week. So the constant comments about how much extra time do ring pretty hallow, and the seeming lack of understanding that any white-collar job in the $90K+ range is going to demand that you are basically always on call for phone/email during your waking hours.

I'm not really angry about it as Mr Coffee seems to be, I understand they have the contract they have, they are generally fairly compensated, and like any strong union they are going to drive a hard bargain at negotiations, I just don't think the demanding work schedule is a fruitful argument with most people who face equal or larger challenges in their work schedules.

In many ways it reminds me of the constant drum beat about safety you hear during police negotiation, when I doubt their jobs would make the top 20 for the personal dangers scale, and they are more highly paid that basically every job above them on that list. It ends up ringing hallow to a segment of society with experience around dangerous jobs, and the police don't understand why. Part of a public sector negotiation is the publicity campaign and sometimes there is a disconnect between what the union members find to be a fruitful argument and what the general public interprets regarding their jobs. I think the "extra" hours is generally this area with teachers, as most of the public would back the side that is for staffing, infrastructure and supply improvements most of the time, but to parents specifically it feels like teachers have clawed back every inch possible in terms of hours worked.

Sorry, why are you so angry?

[Fighting Banana Slug]

Originally Posted by #-3

I think I somewhat agree with Mr Coffee line of thought, without agreeing with his anger about it.

I think it is well agreed even among teachers that they are relatively fairly compensated financially for the type of work they do.

It's been posted in this thread, teachers have 900 hours of classroom time and 300 hours of non classroom time on their schedule. A typical and comparable job is going to have 1650 -1900 hours depending on vacation time offered.

With their 190-200 working days annually, they would need to work 2-4 additional hours every single working day to have the equivalent of a full time job, I am certain that many if not most teachers do put in 3 or 4 hours of extra perp / marking work on a regular basis, but knowing the teachers I know I find it very hard to believe they are doing that 5 days / week. So the constant comments about how much extra time do ring pretty hallow, and the seeming lack of understanding that any white-collar job in the $90K+ range is going to demand that you are basically always on call for phone/email during your waking hours.

I'm not really angry about it as Mr Coffee seems to be, I understand they have the contract they have, they are generally fairly compensated, and like any strong union they are going to drive a hard bargain at negotiations, I just don't think the demanding work schedule is a fruitful argument with most people who face equal or larger challenges in their work schedules.

In many ways it reminds me of the constant drum beat about safety you hear during police negotiation, when I doubt their jobs would make the top 20 for the personal dangers scale, and they are more highly paid that basically every job above them on that list. It ends up ringing hallow to a segment of society with experience around dangerous jobs, and the police don't understand why. Part of a public sector negotiation is the publicity campaign and sometimes there is a disconnect between what the union members find to be a fruitful argument and what the general public interprets regarding their jobs. I think the "extra" hours is generally this area with teachers, as most of the public would back the side that is for staffing, infrastructure and supply improvements most of the time, but to parents specifically it feels like teachers have clawed back every inch possible in terms of hours worked.

Anecdotal only, but I live with someone who easily puts 3 to 4 hours additional a day 5 days a week plus at least that on weekends. More during report card time. I know it sounds hyperbolic, but she logs 70 hours a week, at least.

How can that be, you may ask? I think the best analogy is if you imagine an office job. You start at say 8:00, prepping for the day. Very much the same as a teacher, no one should have any complaints. But then the day takes a very different tone. No coffee breaks, no pee breaks (my wife has an iron bladder, apparently). Just full day meetings, and you are the only presenter. You aren't checking messages, you aren't grabbing coffee, you aren't shooting the #### on CP. Finally at 3:30, your meetings are over. Still need to clean up though. Then it is actual meetings with admin or parents. Lucky to be leaving by 5:00.

All of that might still look like a bad, but not totally unheard of day downtown. But do that everyday. And then prep for those all day meetings, because again, you are doing this solo. Very easy to bang out 3 to 4 hours prepping, not counting the extra-curricular activities you might be running, or dealing with the problem kids and parents. There is a lot there.

There are perks, no doubt, and summer is one of them. I would contend that most teachers put in a full year's work in the other 10 months and have earned it. And as nice as summer is, it would also be nice to take advantage of a cheap flight in May, or check out the kid's recital during school time, but that is a luxury that is mostly not available for teachers.

[Mr.Coffee]

Everybody believes teachers work hard and earn what they make.

People are conflating the actual debate that started today with other random made up arguments. Nobody has said any of this stuff.

I’m starting to get a little concerned about the reading comprehension coming out of our education system though.