Teachers are at the end of their rope.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by GGG

What makes you believe that teachers complain about their work more than the average person complains about their work.

This thread is titled Teachers are at the end of their rope.

Do you see any threads about other jobs on the front page of the Off Topic Forum?

[you&me]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

It isn't exaggerated and yes he was exceptionally lucky to land that job.

But if he wasn't a teach he wouldn't have had the extra 6-7 weeks needed to do the job.

I wasn't pretending that type of pay is the norm, but thanks.

Then why bring something so exceptional up?

"My buddy's a teacher. He's also a professional baseball player, so during his summers he pitches for the Yankees and made a spare million dollars on the side. Good thing for that sweet summer vacay that teachers get... I don't understand why more teachers don't just go out and pitch for the Yankees"

Better yet, if your friend can make $20k a month in construction, WTF would he bother with teaching? Oh... for the children. Bless his heart.

[malcolmk14]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

Can anyone actually detail what the teachers pension actually is? I had heard it was average of your 5 highest earning years for life after retirement, but I'm not sure that's true and am too lazy to go research if there's a teacher here that can just confirm / deny.

I haven't read the thread so someone might've answered this already but essentially it's 1.4% of the YMPE * # of years worked + 2% above the YMPE * # of years worked.

If you retired today at 55 with 30 years of experience and your 5-year average highest salary was $100k you would receive about $48,000 a year as a pension.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by you&me

Then why bring something so exceptional up?

"My buddy's a teacher. He's also a professional baseball player, so during his summers he pitches for the Yankees and made a spare million dollars on the side. Good thing for that sweet summer vacay that teachers get... I don't understand why more teachers don't just go out and pitch for the Yankees"

Better yet, if your friend can make $20k a month in construction, WTF would he bother with teaching? Oh... for the children. Bless his heart.

hahaha



I can't speak for him, but I'm gonna suggest he didn't want to swing a hammer all his life.

He enjoys teaching, dislikes the administration of the School Board.

Teachers have a good job. Is it perfect, probably not, but it sure as #### isn't horrible.

Is there a teacher shortage, hell I don't even know. Maybe teaching sucks, maybe it's a #### job nobody wants.

Maybe we should move all school from traditional to year round schooling.

[The Fisher Account]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

Maybe we should move all school from traditional to year round schooling.

Year round schooling has been a dismal failure in Calgary. Don't expect it to ever gain traction again.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by The Fisher Account

Year round schooling has been a dismal failure in Calgary. Don't expect it to ever gain traction again.

What were the reasons for the failure?

[you&me]

Originally Posted by The Fisher Account

Year round schooling has been a dismal failure in Calgary. Don't expect it to ever gain traction again.

I have zero experience with year round school, but admit the concept seems interesting... What made it such a dismal failure?

[CliffFletcher]

North American school systems have the longest summer breaks in the developed world. Research shows the learning loss from such long breaks is significant, and adopting European school years (6-week summer breaks, 6 weeks spread over the rest of the year) would improve learning outcomes. So yeah, I’m curious in what ways year round schooling was a failure, because I doubt it was a failure academically.

[malcolmk14]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

North American school systems have the longest summer breaks in the developed world. Research shows the learning loss from such long breaks is significant, and adopting European school years (6-week summer breaks, 6 weeks spread over the rest of the year) would improve learning outcomes. So yeah, I’m curious in what ways year round schooling was a failure, because I doubt it was a failure academically.

What research?

McMillen (2001) - "results indicated that achievement in year-round schools was no higher than in traditional calendar schools and that differential effects ... were not of practical significance."

Patall, Cooper & Allen (2010) - "the evidence suggests there may be a neutral to small positive effect of extending school time on achievement."

"research designs used to examine the effects of a lengthened school day or school year generally do not permit strong causal inferences."

McMullen & Rouse (2014) - "results suggest that year-round schooling has essentially no impact on academic achievement of the average student."

[opendoor]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

North American school systems have the longest summer breaks in the developed world. Research shows the learning loss from such long breaks is significant, and adopting European school years (6-week summer breaks, 6 weeks spread over the rest of the year) would improve learning outcomes. So yeah, I’m curious in what ways year round schooling was a failure, because I doubt it was a failure academically.

You've said this before, but it's clearly not true. The EU average for school days per year is 181 days, while Canada's is 183 (OECD average is 184). And because Canada has some of the highest instructional hours in the world, Canada's days are more intensive, with 5.03 hrs/day compared to the EU average of 4.56 hrs/day (OECD average is 4.35 hrs/day). Some places like the Netherlands have 6-week summer breaks, but by and large European schools have 8-9 week breaks during July and August.

[Barnet Flame]

To be fair, in a country like Canada where the summers are so short, it makes sense to make the most of vacation time during the summer months.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by Barnet Flame

To be fair, in a country like Canada where the summers are so short, it makes sense to make the most of vacation time during the summer months.

but the skiing is #### in summer

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Barnet Flame

To be fair, in a country like Canada where the summers are so short, it makes sense to make the most of vacation time during the summer months.

I don't have kids and rarely travel in summer. I always plan trips in June and September just to avoid kid chaos, high prices, and stupid summer traffic.

[CliffFletcher]

Some articles (sorry, but they might be paywalled)

Long summer holidays are bad for children, especially the poor

https://www.economist.com/internatio...ially-the-poor

Down with long school summer breaks
More time studying is better for children, parents and society

https://www.economist.com/europe/202...-summer-breaks

Long summer school breaks make inequality worse

https://qz.com/1354107/long-summer-s...equality-worse

But I’m still curious about how year-round schooling experiments in Alberta have been disastrous.

[Arsenal14]

Originally Posted by you&me

I have zero experience with year round school, but admit the concept seems interesting... What made it such a dismal failure?

Some of the issues were that most of the central admin staff stayed on the traditional calendar so often policies were not developed or announced until they returned to work in September after modified calendar schools had already been in session for a few weeks. This included things like resources not being available all the way up to curriculum changes.

Another issue was that it was possible for siblings to end up in schools that had different calendars - an effort was made to have feeder schools on the same calendar but due to various issues there were cases where a family would end up with kids having breaks at different times. Or staff having their own kids on a different calendar than them. One cause would be children that are in specialized programs (i.e. STEM, arts, sports, language immersion, etc.) often end up with limited school choices.

It seemed like the hope was that if new schools were being put on the modified calendar that the parents in other areas/schools would push for their schools to change but that didn't happen. It ended up just being primarily schools in the NE that were opening in response to the population growth in that area that were on the modified calendar.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by malcolmk14

I haven't read the thread so someone might've answered this already but essentially it's 1.4% of the YMPE * # of years worked + 2% above the YMPE * # of years worked.

If you retired today at 55 with 30 years of experience and your 5-year average highest salary was $100k you would receive about $48,000 a year as a pension.

Do you have a source for that $48k? The Alberta Retired Teachers' Association (ARTA) says it's between 50% - 55% of your five highest earning years, not 48%. When you include CPP and OAS, you will actually get over 70% of your salary. That's 46% more annual income than you suggested, so I just want to put any teachers' minds at ease that - in fact - their pension will offer them a much more comfortable retirement than that $48k you quoted would.

Additionally, teachers receive outstanding benefits through retirement that people in the private sector obviously do not. That is a valuable package that includes medical, dental and vision care, amongst other benefits like accidental death & dismemberment, etc. Check it out in the link above...it's pretty awesome.

Do you know if you can access CPP at 55 retirement? CPP doesn't usually kick in until 65, but I know you can take it earlier if you're okay with 36% less/year in perpetuity.

[opendoor]

Originally Posted by Sliver

Do you have a source for that $48k? The Alberta Retired Teachers' Association (ARTA) says it's between 50% - 55% of your five highest earning years, not 48%. When you include CPP and OAS, you will actually get over 70% of your salary. That's 46% more annual income than you suggested, so I just want to put any teachers' minds at ease that - in fact - their pension will offer them a much more comfortable retirement than that $48k you quoted would.

Read the first part of that paragraph; they're talking about if you work until 65 and accrue the maximum service. If you retire earlier or with less service, you'll tend to get less.

And everyone gets CPP and OAS, so that's not really a useful point of comparison to people who don't have pensions.

Additionally, teachers receive outstanding benefits through retirement that people in the private sector obviously do not. That is a valuable package that includes medical, dental and vision care, amongst other benefits like accidental death & dismemberment, etc. Check it out in the link above...it's pretty awesome.

Unless I'm mistaken, they have to pay monthly premiums for that coverage while in retirement. My mom is a retired teacher in BC and she pays about $200/month for extended health and dental.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by opendoor

Read the first part of that paragraph; they're talking about if you work until 65 and accrue the maximum service. If you retire earlier or with less service, you'll tend to get less.

And everyone gets CPP and OAS, so that's not really a useful point of comparison to people who don't have pensions.

Unless I'm mistaken, they have to pay monthly premiums for that coverage while in retirement. My mom is a retired teacher in BC and she pays about $200/month for extended health and dental.

Well, not everyone. I don't (self employed).

I'm not disputing most people get CPP and OAS, but it's just worth point out that teachers will be living off 70% of their income since that's the relevant number required to plan your life around.

[#-3]

I think I somewhat agree with Mr Coffee line of thought, without agreeing with his anger about it.

I think it is well agreed even among teachers that they are relatively fairly compensated financially for the type of work they do.

It's been posted in this thread, teachers have 900 hours of classroom time and 300 hours of non classroom time on their schedule. A typical and comparable job is going to have 1650 -1900 hours depending on vacation time offered.

With their 190-200 working days annually, they would need to work 2-4 additional hours every single working day to have the equivalent of a full time job, I am certain that many if not most teachers do put in 3 or 4 hours of extra perp / marking work on a regular basis, but knowing the teachers I know I find it very hard to believe they are doing that 5 days / week. So the constant comments about how much extra time do ring pretty hallow, and the seeming lack of understanding that any white-collar job in the $90K+ range is going to demand that you are basically always on call for phone/email during your waking hours.

I'm not really angry about it as Mr Coffee seems to be, I understand they have the contract they have, they are generally fairly compensated, and like any strong union they are going to drive a hard bargain at negotiations, I just don't think the demanding work schedule is a fruitful argument with most people who face equal or larger challenges in their work schedules.

In many ways it reminds me of the constant drum beat about safety you hear during police negotiation, when I doubt their jobs would make the top 20 for the personal dangers scale, and they are more highly paid that basically every job above them on that list. It ends up ringing hallow to a segment of society with experience around dangerous jobs, and the police don't understand why. Part of a public sector negotiation is the publicity campaign and sometimes there is a disconnect between what the union members find to be a fruitful argument and what the general public interprets regarding their jobs. I think the "extra" hours is generally this area with teachers, as most of the public would back the side that is for staffing, infrastructure and supply improvements most of the time, but to parents specifically it feels like teachers have clawed back every inch possible in terms of hours worked.

[Barnet Flame]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

but the skiing is #### in summer

Yeah, but it keeps the kids off the slopes for us old timers.