Ongoing Residential Schools Tragedy Discussion

[peter12]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Well then thank God we can all have an opinion critical of the Catholic Church without anyone else’s permission.

I think a couple of you are bending over backwards to make this sound like people are advocating a “white man knows best” thing, and it’s ridiculously dishonest.

Calling the beliefs of Indigenous people the result of “brainwashing” is exactly that.

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by peter12

Why are people focusing exclusively on the Catholic Church when every main denomination was involved?

Why aren’t people angry with the Crown who mandated these schools, funded them, and continued to ignore widespread death and abuse. After all, the GoC is the body that treatied with Indigenous communities and are ultimately responsible for the relationship.

People aren’t angry with the government over this?

[Wastedyouth]

Originally Posted by peter12

Why are people focusing exclusively on the Catholic Church when every main denomination was involved?

Why aren’t people angry with the Crown who mandated these schools, funded them, and continued to ignore widespread death and abuse. After all, the GoC is the body that treatied with Indigenous communities and are ultimately responsible for the relationship.

Oh, I think we are plenty upset with the Crown.

But the Crown doesn't have an extended history of sexual abuse of minors.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by peter12

Why are people focusing exclusively on the Catholic Church when every main denomination was involved?

Why aren’t people angry with the Crown who mandated these schools, funded them, and continued to ignore widespread death and abuse. After all, the GoC is the body that treatied with Indigenous communities and are ultimately responsible for the relationship.

Because the Catholic church was responsible for some 70% of them, and the other churches have a spine and have apologized, as well as the Canadian government:

Four religious organizations in Canada have formally apologized to Indigenous people. Their apologies can be seen below:

• Anglican Church of Canada
• Missionary Oblates of Mary Immaculate
• Presbyterian Church of Canada
• United Church of Canada

A better question is why do you think it isn't necessary? While an apology isn't action, it's and admission of their role in it, and a beginning to heal. You can't start healing if one party refuses to accept responsibility. The responses from some of you are baffling.

[tvp2003]

Originally Posted by Wormius

Not sure how trustworthy Wikipedia is, but it shows more than a couple that were focused on assimilation.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amer...arding_schools

That page also says that "Indian" schools are still operating, including one in South Dakota?

Off reservation schools such as St. Joseph's Indian School in South Dakota continue to operate.

St. Joseph's Indian School is an American Indian residential school, located in Chamberlain, South Dakota, United States. It was founded in 1927 by Henry Hogebach, a Roman Catholic priest from Germany. The school is owned and operated by the Priests of the Sacred Heart.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Because the Catholic church was responsible for some 70% of them, and the other churches have a spine and have apologized, as well as the Canadian government:



A better question is why do you think it isn't necessary? While an apology isn't action, it's and admission of their role in it, and a beginning to heal. You can't start healing if one party refuses to accept responsibility. The responses from some of you are baffling.

I have zero problem with apologies and reparations from every damned organization, entity and government involved.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by peter12

Calling the beliefs of Indigenous people the result of “brainwashing” is exactly that.

First off, I never used the word brainwashed, so you can leave that out of quotes. I use the term "indoctrinated", which, if you need a definition:
"teach (a person or group) to accept a set of beliefs uncritically." And I'd love to hear you argue that I've misused that word in this situation.

[CroFlames]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Because the Catholic church was responsible for some 70% of them, and the other churches have a spine and have apologized, as well as the Canadian government:



A better question is why do you think it isn't necessary? While an apology isn't action, it's and admission of their role in it, and a beginning to heal. You can't start healing if one party refuses to accept responsibility. The responses from some of you are baffling.

Hate to be a pedant, but the missionary Oblates of Mary are well and truly a Catholic organization.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

First off, I never used the word brainwashed, so you can leave that out of quotes. I use the term "indoctrinated", which, if you need a definition:
"teach (a person or group) to accept a set of beliefs uncritically." And I'd love to hear you argue that I've misused that word in this situation.

Why do you think those beliefs persist? Do you think it is that so many Indigenous people who remain Christian are unable to critically examine their own beliefs?

[stone hands]

Originally Posted by peter12

Why do you think those beliefs persist? Do you think it is that so many Indigenous people who remain Christian are unable to critically examine their own beliefs?

Why are indoctrinated people indoctrinated?

Is that what ur asking?

[peter12]

A major component of anti-Indigenous racism is the inability to accept that Indigenous people can think for themselves and make conscious, rational choices based on the same complex set of factors that non-Indigenous people face.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by peter12

Why do you think those beliefs persist? Do you think it is that so many Indigenous people who remain Christian are unable to critically examine their own beliefs?

I've not looked into it, but I'd assume it's for the same reason most people stick with the religion they were assigned. People don't really change their religions much once they have been raised in one.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by peter12

Why do you think those beliefs persist? Do you think it is that so many Indigenous people who remain Christian are unable to critically examine their own beliefs?

Nothing to do with Indigenous people specifically, but rather all indoctrinated people have difficulty critically examining their own beliefs. It's part of the design and result of the indoctrination process.

[cam_wmh]

Originally Posted by peter12

A major component of anti-Indigenous racism is the inability to accept that Indigenous people can think for themselves and make conscious, rational choices based on the same complex set of factors that non-Indigenous people face.

Religion indoctrinates, regardless of creed or race.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by cam_wmh

Religion indoctrinates, regardless of creed or race.

If we only found it so easy to critically examine our own beliefs instead of the beliefs of those we are purportedly trying to help

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

You are totally right. The church totally shouldn't apologize for these atrocities, or be part of reparations. Lets just all move on.

Where did I say that?

[Wastedyouth]

Originally Posted by peter12

A major component of anti-Indigenous racism is the inability to accept that Indigenous people can think for themselves and make conscious, rational choices based on the same complex set of factors that non-Indigenous people face.

I think the issue with this line of reasoning is, the non-indigenous members of our communities for a 100 years WEREN'T forced into schools that were almost explicitly run by Catholic churches and had Christianity rammed down their throats by force.

So, while we do accept that Indigenous people have the ability to make their own conscious rational decisions, were they able to?

Sure seems like these schools never gave them the chance to have a choice. Multi-generational forced indoctrination of a religion.

Of course they aren't going to abandon an organization that for generations has been forced down a large majority of their throats. It's a tough cycle to break.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

And in general, I don’t think the blistering contempt for religion frequently expressed on this site by posters who are overwhelmingly white, young, educated males, is a good look. Not when you consider that people of religious faith tend to be older, poorer, female, and visible minorities. It’s especially risible when the people expressing that contempt are self-professed champions of the downtrodden.

You've taken this position a couple of times and it makes absolutely no sense in light of your other expressed views, as far as I can tell. Be specific. Why is the fact that the group doing the criticizing is white, male and college educated relevant? Why is the fact that many religious people are visible minorities relevant? Why does this make it "not a good look"?

I want you to spell this out in detail, because it sure sounds like you're vaguely alluding to a purely identitarian argument in an attempt to pander to the world view of some of the people you're disagreeing with, notwithstanding that such an argument would be entirely inconsistent with your own political ideology.

Originally Posted by peter12

If we only found it so easy to critically examine our own beliefs instead of the beliefs of those we are purportedly trying to help

But this is the crux of the disagreement: religion is premised on not critically examining your beliefs. That's precisely why it's objectionable. Which of my own beliefs do you not think I'm critically examining if I say that the Catholic Church has throughout history been responsible for endless and unspeakable atrocities, and though reformed, continues to this day to be a force for ill in the lives of many people, including the most vulnerable?

I mean, I'm not denying that it's a force for good in many peoples' lives as well.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Where did I say that?

Maybe you should go back and read this, which you obviously didn't.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/briti...ools-1.6048077

I said that maybe people should stop supporting this horrendous organization financially, and you responded that Indigenous people wouldn't want to see them destroyed. This is kinda hilarious re-reading yours and Peter's posts about white people telling them what they want, despite the article from actual Indigenous people saying they want money, support, and big surprise coming up here, an apology.

You are basically excusing the behavior of the abuser in a relationship because the abused still has a relationship around the abuser.

[peter12]

No, that’s not what we are saying but nice try.

Also, you read the article. It features an Indigenous ordained minister. Was she also indoctrinated?