Ongoing Residential Schools Tragedy Discussion

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by tjinaz

US put them in reservations but let them govern themselves. big difference. This is a Canandian thing. No government schools killing kids in the US. No mass graves at US schools

https://harvardpolitics.com/a-progre...enous-peoples/

Did you read the article you posted? I'll sum it up 'Canada doesnt let their natives have casinos and everybody knows casinos are the only thing you can do with a rez'

[Fuzz]

Roman Catholic Church continues to be horrible:

But critics say there's one key word missing from those statements: "Sorry."
Rev. Michael Coren, an Anglican priest and author, is among those who have been the most vocal following the Kamloops discovery, penning a column directed at the Catholic Church.

"Every church, virtually every church in Canada, was involved in this catastrophe," he told host Stephen Quinn on CBC's The Early Edition. "And that should never be denied."

"[The Roman Catholic Church] simply will not make a commitment to its direct involvement in these atrocities because, I would argue, it's terrified of the financial and legal consequences if it does," he said.

The survivors society has issued calls to action, similar to the TRC, aimed at both the federal government and the Catholic Church. That includes an acknowledgement from the Pope.

When it comes to healing, Angela White says it starts with "sorry," but true reconciliation requires an ongoing dialogue.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/briti...048077?cmp=rss


You want to help? Stop going to their churches and giving them money every Sunday. If money is all they care about, take that power away.

[redforever]

Originally Posted by tjinaz

US put them in reservations but let them govern themselves. big difference. This is a Canandian thing. No government schools killing kids in the US. No mass graves at US schools

https://harvardpolitics.com/a-progre...enous-peoples/

I believe in some cases they tried to take children forcibly in the US as well. When I visited Alcatraz, part of the literature said there was a section of prisoners that would not forfeit their children and so were sent to jail.

[redforever]

Originally Posted by peter12

#### that idiot.

While not very common, if you read the stories of the survivors in the report of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, that was the case for a few, but rarely.

In some cases, when children came home for the holidays, they wanted to stay home, but the parents would not let them.

As I said, not very many mentioned something like this and it was not common, but yes, in some cases, the parents were unable and unwilling to keep their children at home.

[CliffFletcher]

Two-thirds of indigenous Canadians identify as Christian, and most of those are Catholic. It’s doubtful that the destruction of the Catholic Church is what indigenous Canadians themselves want.

[Fuzz]

And why is that the case? I'm sure they totally came to those beliefs all on their own, and weren't indoctrinated into it as children. Just another abuse bestowed on them destroying their culture.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

And why is that the case? I'm sure they totally came to those beliefs all on their own, and weren't indoctrinated into it as children. Just another abuse bestowed on them destroying their culture.

So are you going to tell indigenous Catholics that they’re a bunch of brainwashed dupes, and the destruction of the church they belong to is for their own good? That seems remarkably arrogant and paternalistic.

[btimbit]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

So are you going to tell indigenous Catholics that they’re a bunch of brainwashed dupes, and the destruction of the church they belong to is for their own good? That seems remarkably arrogant and paternalistic.

Not just indigenous, I say that to all Catholics

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

So are you going to tell indigenous Catholics that they’re a bunch of brainwashed dupes, and the destruction of the church they belong to is for their own good? That seems remarkably arrogant and paternalistic.

I'm suggesting that the Church should apologize and take some responsibility. Are you suggesting they shouldn't, because they managed to indoctrinate a large proportion of them, so they shouldn't have to admit guilt? I don't follow your logic here.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by btimbit

Not just indigenous, I say that to all Catholics

I’m sure it’s highly persuasive.

Every year 35,000 indigenous Canadians make a pilgrimage to Lac St Anne in northern Alberta. If you showed up with some placards and a megaphone you could really move the needle.

[Wastedyouth]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

So are you going to tell indigenous Catholics that they’re a bunch of brainwashed dupes, and the destruction of the church they belong to is for their own good? That seems remarkably arrogant and paternalistic.

I would probably tell that to most, if not all, people who are part of an organized religion.

They are a pyramid scheme. State sanctioned ones.

[CroFlames]

I think you guys are missing the point. Whether or not religious beliefs are ridiculous or not is not the point.

The point is that these people are now Catholic, and telling them that they or their ancestors were forced into this religion and therefore they should leave it would be akin to telling them they don't know what is best for themselves, so let the enlightened White Man tell you.

Not likely to win many customers like that.

[Wastedyouth]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

I think you guys are missing the point. Whether or not religious beliefs are ridiculous or not is not the point.

The point is that these people are now Catholic, and telling them that they or their ancestors were forced into this religion and therefore they should leave it would be akin to telling them they don't know what is best for themselves, so let the enlightened White Man tell you.

Not likely to win many customers like that.

That's true. Which is why my comment was all bluster.

[CliffFletcher]

You want to bankrupt the Catholic Church and others here have called for its destruction.

I’m an atheist, and I don’t have any particular fondness for the Catholic Church. But it’s not really up to you or me how indigenous Canadians - a great many of whom are Catholic - reconcile the legacy of the Church’s role in residential schools.

And in general, I don’t think the blistering contempt for religion frequently expressed on this site by posters who are overwhelmingly white, young, educated males, is a good look. Not when you consider that people of religious faith tend to be older, poorer, female, and visible minorities. It’s especially risible when the people expressing that contempt are self-professed champions of the downtrodden.

[Wastedyouth]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

You want to bankrupt the Catholic Church and others here have called for its destruction.

I’m an atheist, and I don’t have any particular fondness for the Catholic Church. But it’s not really up to you or me how indigenous Canadians - a great many of whom are Catholic - reconcile the legacy of the Church’s role in residential schools.

And in general, I don’t think the blistering contempt for religion frequently expressed on this site by posters who are overwhelmingly white, young, educated males, is a good look. Not when you consider that people of religious faith tend to be older, poorer, female, and visible minorities. It’s especially risible when the people expressing that contempt are self-professed champions of the downtrodden.

Are these churches helping these types people? Or taking advantage of them? Is there something well funded social programs couldn't do that a church does?

Just saying. As much as people lean on churches, the churches take advantage of that desperation for their own needs.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

You want to bankrupt the Catholic Church and others here have called for its destruction.

I’m an atheist, and I don’t have any particular fondness for the Catholic Church. But it’s not really up to you or me how indigenous Canadians - a great many of whom are Catholic - reconcile the legacy of the Church’s role in residential schools.

And in general, I don’t think the blistering contempt for religion frequently expressed on this site by posters who are overwhelmingly white, young, educated males, is a good look. Not when you consider that people of religious faith tend to be older, poorer, female, and visible minorities. It’s especially risible when the people expressing that contempt are self-professed champions of the downtrodden.

You are totally right. The church totally shouldn't apologize for these atrocities, or be part of reparations. Lets just all move on. Cliff knows best.



Or maybe you could recognize that Indigenous peoples are also calling for that, irregardless of what religion they are?


https://www.rcaanc-cirnac.gc.ca/eng/.../1557513116819


https://caid.ca/Dchurch_apology.html


https://www.convergingpathways.ca/action/?section=55

[peter12]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

And why is that the case? I'm sure they totally came to those beliefs all on their own, and weren't indoctrinated into it as children. Just another abuse bestowed on them destroying their culture.

The white man’s lens is pervasive. It’s these sentiments which brought us to this point. You can’t purport to know what is best for other people even when you say you are trying to help them.

[CroFlames]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

You are totally right. The church totally shouldn't apologize for these atrocities, or be part of reparations. Lets just all move on. Cliff knows best.



Or maybe you could recognize that Indigenous peoples are also calling for that, irregardless of what religion they are?


https://www.rcaanc-cirnac.gc.ca/eng/.../1557513116819


https://caid.ca/Dchurch_apology.html


https://www.convergingpathways.ca/action/?section=55

OK I can't believe I'm doing this a 2nd time in as many posts, but he didn't say anywhere in his post the church shouldn't apologize. He's an atheist, why would he defend a religion he's not affiliated with.

My personal opinion is that any clergy associated with these schools should be excommunicated from their respective churches, the institutions should pay massive reparations, then the perps punished to the fullest extent of the law (if they are alive). The very folks who suffered under these schools may have a different opinion.

Cliff's point is that my opinion, yours, and his don't matter.

[peter12]

Why are people focusing exclusively on the Catholic Church when every main denomination was involved?

Why aren’t people angry with the Crown who mandated these schools, funded them, and continued to ignore widespread death and abuse. After all, the GoC is the body that treatied with Indigenous communities and are ultimately responsible for the relationship.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

OK I can't believe I'm doing this a 2nd time in as many posts, but he didn't say anywhere in his post the church shouldn't apologize. He's an atheist, why would he defend a religion he's not affiliated with.

My personal opinion is that any clergy associated with these schools should be excommunicated from their respective churches, the institutions should pay massive reparations, then the perps punished to the fullest extent of the law (if they are alive). The very folks who suffered under these schools may have a different opinion.

Cliff's point is that my opinion, yours, and his don't matter.

Well then thank God we can all have an opinion critical of the Catholic Church without anyone else’s permission.

I think a couple of you are bending over backwards to make this sound like people are advocating a “white man knows best” thing, and it’s ridiculously dishonest.