Flames - how to cure the rot for 2019/20

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

Originally Posted by calgarygeologist

I mentioned this last night but I think Brad Treliving needs to stop being so passive at the trade deadline and acquire some rental players to fill gaps and provide the neccesary support for a playoff run. If the Flames are in a playoff position next year the top guys need to evaluate the line up, identify the weakness and make some moves. I get the feeling that instead of making moves and helping the team he supports his existing pieces too much and believes that they can shift roles for a playoff run.

That strategy has not worked and will not work. I know that many folks here don't necessarily like the idea of rentals for the playoffs but it is an approach that has worked before elsewhere.

Look (https://www.nhl.com/news/2018-19-nhl-trades/c-289968698) at all the work that teams like Winnipeg, Columbus, Nashville and Dallas did going into the stretch and playoffs. Are they better because of it and are they seeing playoff success? In my opinion, yes.

I think what you are failing to acknowledge is lifecycle point of the team and correlation to deadline moves. This is the first year BT has likely thought it even worth considering a deadline move to improve the club, and certainly the first it would have potentially helped. He didn’t like the prices or he got outbid this year.....but I don’t think we know that he needs to change his strategy, we still need to see what it is now we have a team fully in its window.

This is the problem with cheering for an org. tgat has not delivered much playoff success over the decades, the fans base patience and timelines are often miss aligned with realities of the current version of the team, which puts pressure on everyone from manager to players to have to be ahead of schedule or feel like they need to make up for others failures.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

As a fan of 33 years, I don't even get upset at these playoff collapses anymore. Choking is in the makeup of the franchise, transmitted from roster to roster like venereal crabs in a dormitory couch.

So once again, let's play the How to Fix This Team in the Offseason game.

Gaudreau: He's taking a lot of unwarranted criticism. He tried to drive play. He backchecked. He played hard. But the game is called differently in the playoffs, and teams are always going to key on him. He simply isn't strong enough to power through the checks when games get tight. It is what it is. Johnny needs help. He needs another dynamic player on his line who can sometimes gain the zone and take some of the heat off him. He doesn't have it now.

The Flames should not be shopping him. But they should listen to any offers from the obvious teams out east. He may be worth more to a team trying to sell tickets than his is to the Flames.

For his part, Gaudreau could help his cause by starting to take diet and training seriously. He has enough disadvantages in the NHL without compounding them with those of his own making.

Monahan: A pure sniper who brings almost nothing to the game when he isn't sniping. When your #1C is the worst forward on your roster without the puck, you have a problem. A serious problem.

Of course, it's not easy to acquire a true #1C. A couple changed hands over the last year (O'Reilly, Duchene), so there's always a chance. Maybe a Seguin or Stamkos comes available. But the Flames might need to address the C position with depth instead, like the Preds have.

If the Flames do decide to move on from Monahan, his contract will certainly make him attractive, especially to teams with low payroll budgets (Arizona, Carolina, Anaheim). Of course, teams are going to wonder how much of Monahan's production has been down to playing with Gaudreau.

Goaltending: Was this Smith's swan song, or do the Flames re-sign him for another season until they know what they have in Rittich? This position is still clear as mud. The Coyotes might be willing to let one of Raanta or Kuemper go, given the strong play both have shown.

Coaching: Peters did a great job with this team, bringing structure that played to the strengths of the roster. Never let the team fall into a long swoon. But he was schooled by Bednar in this series. He had no solution to the Avs forecheck that disrupted any efforts to transition the pucks to forward with speed. He had four games to figure out counter-tactics, and failed.

This was his first playoffs as a head coach. Hopefully he'll learn how to gameplan for a series and adapt once the series gets underway.

Treliving: Has enough playoff games with this core to identify where the weaknesses are. Heat seems to be on from ownership, so expect his moves to be of the Win Now kind. I'm skeptical we'll be making a pick in the first round.

Move on from: Brodie will find a home somewhere, either for picks or as part of a package for a centre. Seems like Peters isn't a fan of Frolik, so expect him to be moved. Jankowski does not seem able to elevate his game, and PK specialists need to bring some energy to their game 5 on 5. Neal is unmovable.

Targets: Kevin Hayes, Nazim Kadri, Jason Zucker, Darcy Kuemper.

Good post. Agree with basically all of this. Would not shock me at all to see Smith return to the Flames next season on a 1 or 2 year deal in the 3 mil range.

I'm not sure how the Flames move on from Neal and Mike Stone, but any attempts to shore up the centre ice position will necessitate moving both players, and most likely in a separate move from acquiring that centre.

I also agree it's unlikely the flames will pick in the first round this year. That might be the starting point of a deal that sees Neal or Stone moved out.

I could see both players end up in Phoenix, especially if the Flames are willing to eat salary on the final year of Stone's deal. Stone has a 15 team no-trade (ugh), so he'd having to be willing to go somewhere and he knows Phoenix so that might be the easiest fit. Closer to his brother now too.

Kadri is the player I think will most likely end up on the Flames roster. A deal surrounding Kadri for Brodie seems obvious.

[locsofblu]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

As a fan of 33 years, I don't even get upset at these playoff collapses anymore. Choking is in the makeup of the franchise, transmitted from roster to roster like venereal crabs in a dormitory couch.

So once again, let's play the How to Fix This Team in the Offseason game.

Gaudreau: He's taking a lot of unwarranted criticism. He tried to drive play. He backchecked. He played hard. But the game is called differently in the playoffs, and teams are always going to key on him. He simply isn't strong enough to power through the checks when games get tight. It is what it is. Johnny needs help. He needs another dynamic player on his line who can sometimes gain the zone and take some of the heat off him. He doesn't have it now.

The Flames should not be shopping him. But they should listen to any offers from the obvious teams out east. He may be worth more to a team trying to sell tickets than his is to the Flames.

For his part, Gaudreau could help his cause by starting to take diet and training seriously. He has enough disadvantages in the NHL without compounding them with those of his own making.

Monahan: A pure sniper who brings almost nothing to the game when he isn't sniping. When your #1C is the worst forward on your roster without the puck, you have a problem. A serious problem.

It's not easy to acquire a true #1C. A couple changed hands over the last year (O'Reilly, Duchene), so there's always a chance. Maybe a Seguin or Stamkos comes available. But the Flames might need to address the C position with depth instead, like the Preds have.

If the Flames do decide to move on from Monahan, his contract will certainly make him attractive, especially to teams with low payroll budgets (Arizona, Carolina, Anaheim). Of course, teams are going to wonder how much of Monahan's production has been down to playing with Gaudreau.

Goaltending: Was this Smith's swan song, or do the Flames re-sign him for another season until they know what they have in Rittich? This position is still clear as mud. The Coyotes might be willing to let one of Raanta or Kuemper go, given the strong play both have shown.

Coaching: Peters did a great job with this team, bringing structure that played to the strengths of the roster. Never let the team fall into a long swoon. But he was schooled by Bednar in this series. He had no solution to the Avs forecheck that disrupted any efforts to transition the pucks to forward with speed. He had four games to figure out counter-tactics, and failed.

This was his first playoffs as a head coach. Hopefully he'll learn how to gameplan for a series and adapt once the series gets underway.

Treliving: Has enough playoff games with this core to identify where the weaknesses are. Heat seems to be on from ownership, so expect his moves to be of the Win Now kind. I'm skeptical we'll be making a pick in the first round.

Move on from: Brodie will find a home somewhere, either for picks or as part of a package for a centre. Seems like Peters isn't a fan of Frolik, so expect him to be moved. Jankowski does not seem able to elevate his game, and PK specialists need to bring some energy to their game 5 on 5. Neal is unmovable.

Targets: Kevin Hayes, Nazim Kadri, Jason Zucker, Darcy Kuemper.

I agree 100%

[GeoRock]

Originally Posted by Hockey_Ninja

All of you guys writing up proposals to trade Johnny and Monny are gonna be severely dissapointed when they're both still Flames next season.

I think it's emotions flying. We just got burned hard. But I agree with the posters that Monny is not the power #1C to drive this team into a playoff run. I'd be happy to see BT go after a guy like Duchene if we could make the cap space work.

Monny is a good 25+ goal scorer and is well suited as a 2nd line C. Johnny needs matched intensity from his C, and I think we are well aware that Monny doesn't have that. The old mantra that you have to "build a team down the middle" is ringing true after this series, the media pinning it as McKinnon vs Gaudreau was night and day.

I would have to think that with a power C on line 1 and Monny and Backs on lines 2 and 3, that would make up the middle we need.

I dunno. I'm sad.

[The Boy Wonder]

I think we can’t be too disappointed in the season and can’t be too rash in the moves we make this offseason but there are a few things that stand out as needing to be dealt with:

Top line (and especially Johnny / mony)

How many more chances do they get to show they can perform when the games get tougher and tighter?
I would listen to offers for either Johnny or mony but would not be actively shopping them. And you have to be concerned about mony’s long term health if rumours about his injuries being more permanent than originally thought and becoming continuous issues are true.

Tkachuk:

There needs to be some hard conversation with tkachuk around his soft play in the playoffs, and I would hope that lessens the cap hit a little bit in negotiations. He seems to have played a much softer game this season and to be honest, he doesn’t have elite or even above average speed to totally get away from playing how he is most effective as a pest.

Defensive log jam:
I think the flames need to move on from Brodie and stone to free up space for the young guys

Goalie:
I personally think this playoffs was smith’s swan song and shouldn’t erase the months of terrible play in season that nearly cost him his career. Let him go be a pto for someone else.
Bring in someone young to compete with rittich and go that direction

Coaching:
I don’t think you want to change much here, and I think peters did as good a job as could be expected when the oppositions best players outplay our best 4/5 games.
I think the experience he gained in playoffs will help him long term and I don’t mind being the least physical team in the regular season as long as we can translate that to playoff success.

[GullFoss]

The more I think about it, the more I think the focus should be on both Cotourier and Kadri as the flames look to emulate the two way center depth of the bruins.

Would love to see

Johnny Cotourier Bennett
Tkachuk Backlund Eberle
Mangiapane Kadri Lindholm
Dube Ryan Hathaway

Giordano Andersson
Hanifin Hamonic
Valimaki Kylington

Cotourier for Monahan + Janko + Stone
Kadri for Brodie + 2nd
Frolik for a Fourth
Buy out Neal

[kyuss275]

Originally Posted by GullFoss

The more I think about it, the more I think the focus should be on both Cotourier and Kadri as the flames look to emulate the two way center depth of the bruins.

Would love to see

Johnny Cotourier Bennett
Tkachuk Backlund Eberle
Mangiapane Kadri Lindholm
Dube Ryan Hathaway

Giordano Andersson
Hanifin Hamonic
Valimaki Kylington

Cotourier for Monahan + Janko + Stone
Kadri for Brodie + 2nd
Frolik for a Fourth
Buy out Neal

Why is philly trading Coutourier for a passive Monahan and some extra junk?

Also no way flames are buying out Neal already. We are stuck with him.

[getoverit]

I think Stone would have made a great addition, you dont come across guys with that level of size, compete and talent. I would have paid stone his money then fork it out for Tkatchuk who cant drive a line and skates on his ankles. we could have got a solid return for Tkatchuk for assets and money spent on Stone. flame away but think we let that one slip. enough with the free agents,been killing us, Neal is going to hurt for a while

[Manhattanboy]

I am still angry we didn’t get Stone after being in on him.

He could have made a huge difference to this franchise for years to come.

[SportsJunky]

I think trading Gaudreau for Courtourier, straight up at least, would be a mistake. Johnny is frustrating but he’s close to elite at what he does.

Kadri is an interesting player. He has lapses in judgement that would drive Flames fans crazy but he has a nice game at times. He absolutely hates Gio after the rough treatment he received from the Flames captain. Im not sure that he is enough of a professional to put that aside.

[Infinit47]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

So much of this post is incorrect

Solid counterpoint. What did Peters do down the stretch when the first line dissappeared? The team play noticeably dropped off when games got tough and no adjustments were made. James Neal should have been a healthy scratch after game 1 when it was clear that he wasn't even close to keeping up with the game, but he played him 14 minutes in the pivotal game 4 only to scratch him for game 5.

The only player he seemed to demand accountability from all season was Frolik. Gaudreau flat out gave up at the end of game 3, and should have been stapled to the bench for his stick waiving "defense". But nothing was done.

How much better did these same players do under Hartley when he held them accountable?

[Otto-matic]

Here's the thing.

Did Colorado blow up their team when they got bounced a couple years ago? No they built around their top players with a great supporting cast. I don't see why we should even consider doing massive changes to this team without giving them a better supporting cast.

[Ashasx]

Originally Posted by memphusk

And Zucker isn't making a difference. I bet Treliving is thanking his lucky stars that move didn't pan out.

You wouldnt have traded Frolik + the 26th pick for Zucker?

Zucker might not have won this series for us, but he is a very good player signed to term.

[burnitdown]

Originally Posted by Otto-matic

Here's the thing.

Did Colorado blow up their team when they got bounced a couple years ago? No they built around their top players with a great supporting cast. I don't see why we should even consider doing massive changes to this team without giving them a better supporting cast.

Are you talking last year, when they lost the series 4-2 against the Preds. Mackinnon was dominant and they gave the top ranked Preds a run for their money.

I don't think there was any thought of blowing up the team after that. They improved from 48 pts to 95 pts and built up a young core from high draft picks after missing the playoffs the previous few years. I don't really think they're a comparable for us at all.

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

Originally Posted by Otto-matic

Here's the thing.

Did Colorado blow up their team when they got bounced a couple years ago? No they built around their top players with a great supporting cast. I don't see why we should even consider doing massive changes to this team without giving them a better supporting cast.

Don’t talk that very logical non sense in here, and besides, the Colorado teams of the 90’s didn’t disappoint their fans and rabble rabble.

[Otto-matic]

Originally Posted by Cleveland Steam Whistle

Don’t talk that very logical non sense in here, and besides, the Colorado teams of the 90’s didn’t disappoint their fans and rabble rabble.

I just don't get why majority of the fan base wants to blow this team up and go back into rebuild mode when we literally just came out of one. I didn't realize this was our only shot at the cup and now we're packing in the bags on this team that played some of the best Flames hockey in 30 years.

[Igottago]

Originally Posted by Otto-matic

Here's the thing.

Did Colorado blow up their team when they got bounced a couple years ago? No they built around their top players with a great supporting cast. I don't see why we should even consider doing massive changes to this team without giving them a better supporting cast.

The supporting cast was great for the Flames. The failure is explicitly because of the top players. Its not about blowing it up -- the Flames don't need to rebuild. But they need to face the reality that this core in its current configuration won't have playoff success. The Flames didn't just get ousted after a hard fought 7 game battle. They got destroyed by the 8th seed team in 5 games. Slaughtered. Lost 4 straight. There are deep problems with the playoff performance of this core. They need some changes to see if they can improve or they really will just be wasting good years.

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

Originally Posted by Otto-matic

I just don't get why majority of the fan base wants to blow this team up and go back into rebuild mode when we literally just came out of one. I didn't realize this was our only shot at the cup and now we're packing in the bags on this team that played some of the best Flames hockey in 30 years.

I totally agree with you btw, my post was sarcastic . People are impatient, making the playoffs in 2015 akso made them think our rebuild was further ahead than it was, and they are clearly putting the baggage of teams past onto this group. This group has just started its window, and some changes are clearly still needed but this team took a step forward this year and we need to give this version of the Flames from GM down a chance to write their own story rather than assume they are following the path of teams past.

[Strange Brew]

What I have leaned in this thread is that Treliving gave Stone a 15 team no trade clause. WTF?

Step 1 for next year:

Flames have $15 million tied up in players either gone or who frankly, they don’t want on the team anymore. Brouwer, Neal, Stone and Frolik. Nothing to be done about Brouwer but that number needs to get smaller if you plan to make the team better.

Package one of them with the 1st round pick? Maybe but you need impact players on ELC’s to compete in this league. Not enough of those in the system right now.

[CGY12]

May be unpopular but I look at trading BOTH Brodie and Giordano. A team might just be willing to over pay to acquire the Norris trophy winner (i think) and we can address the forward issue (top 6 speed and 1 shot scoring ability). I can appreciate all he's done for the franchise but the organization needs to start prioritizing winning the cup above anything else. Part of doing that is moving on from players and capitalizing on their value when its high. The franchise always seems to hold on till the bitter end, only to try when they have no choice and are worth peanuts (Phanuef, Iginla, Bouwmeester, Regehr, etc.).

Now i'm not pinning the playoff performance on Gio but we've seen what he's capable of in the playoffs. We look damn good on D with the likes of Valamaki, Kylington, Andersson, Hanifin. Turn the keys over to them. Sign a cheaper UFA who can bring in some grit and toughness (but also has the ability to skate) and run with these 4 as your top 2 D pairings.