If we consider what this teacher did to be blackface, then we can no longer say that "blackface is racist" and may only say that "blackface is sometimes racist", so one should question if pushing for such an expanded definition is actually helpful or harmful to the goal of combatting racism.
Anything that pushes to more nuanced discussion of racism is helpful. How about we use logic and judge each case for what it is.
The idea that every act needs to be thrown into a "is racist" or "isn't racist" bucket is not helpful.
All indications are she made a mistake unknowingly that what she was doing was widely considered offensive and could be taken as blackface.
She likely didn't even know what blackface was or any historic context of it.
What she did was wrong but from a place of ignorance, not racism. She apologized, learned some history and that should be enough.
Tomorrow she'll think differently about this and probably by more sensitive to racial issues in general, and that's a good thing.
This is how we move forward.
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If we consider what this teacher did to be blackface, then we can no longer say that "blackface is racist" and may only say that "blackface is sometimes racist", so one should question if pushing for such an expanded definition is actually helpful or harmful to the goal of combatting racism.
No, blackface is always racist, whether you intend it to be / intend it to carry malice or not.
This is still an example of that. It’s racist. Doesn’t make her a racist, but she did a racist thing, and has obviously acquired some education for it. We can, and should, strive to talk frankly about racist things (among other things) without people getting caught up on definitions, degrees, semantics.
Is it racist? Yeah. Is it KKK levels of racist? Obviously not. Is it a problem if people think that pointing out something that’s racist is basically the same as accusing someone of being a nazi? Absolutely. Is that a problem created by both sides? Absolutely.
EDIT: ^^^^^ basically what Windsor said. Bringing nuance into the conversation is the key here. We can call things what they are, without it meaning they’re everything ever associated with that term.
The more people realise racism isn’t all slavery and segregation, the more we can talk about what it is today, and continue progress.
As I understand, “Blackface” can trace its origins to minstrel shows where blacks were not allowed to perform. When Ellington et al were first performing to white audiences, the shows were themed toward the jungle/savage/stereotypical African roots of the music/dancers/ performers because they were dark skinned if nothing else. Blackface was used as a disgusting caricature in white-only clubs to parallel the racial profile thrust upon the blacks at the time. While whites flocked to see African performers who were only allowed to perform while conforming to savage exoticness of a jungle dweller that whites found intriguing, many more flocked to see the same style performances performed by whites absurdly mimicking this presentation. The stereotypical presentation was degrading on its on, let alone at a time when blacks could not even attend the establishments they could very well be performing in. It was absolutely a display of racial stereotyping, racial bigotry and segregation. The very act of painting whites black so audiences could get their fill of exoticness is disturbing enough, let alone the fact they were portrayed in such a obscene way.
*full disclaimer, my awareness of ‘blackface’ is limited to this history. It probably has roots further back, and probably substantially more sinister.
In this instance, group of people were imitating another group of people. There was no more stereotype presented, nor malice, than “Howie Mandel”’s character baldness. Was the person portraying the darker skin toned person perverting the real life character by acting in a manner more ‘ethnic’ than in reality? Was the makeup put on to make a mockery of the real-life person? Was the makeup due to a segregation of races? To emphasize a racial stereotype?
Or was it just because the entire thing was to reenact a silly reality TV show, right down to the famous, obviously well regarded cast?
That is why there is no parallel to me. One thing is deeply rooted in stereotype and segregation towards a group portrayed as lesser developed, lesser ‘human’ and more primitively savage, using exaggerated physical features to promote the narrative. The other was an act of idolizing a group of people, by others doing their best to portray them. Howie Mandel doesn’t need to be bald, but it sure looks a lot more like him if you have a shaved head a stupid tuff of hair.
*sexond disclosure: savage and primitive are not my terms.
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No, blackface is always racist, whether you intend it to be / intend it to carry malice or not.
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EDIT: ^^^^^ basically what Windsor said. Bringing nuance into the conversation is the key here. We can call things what they are, without it meaning they’re everything ever associated with that term.
Is it demeaning? Implying racial inferiority/superiority? Not even stereotyping? Nope, none of those? Okay then, not racist.
It's ironic that you're arguing for nuance while taking the least nuanced position posible.
Isn't that his similar to me wan I got to say the n-word. I'm not using it out of Malice or Spite. I'm just calling my white friends it. I'm using it to mean friend and is a positive manner. I also like to use the word ######ed but not to insult people instead to talk about doing something crazy.
Just because I'm not using it in it's historically offensive manner doesn't remove its offense.
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No, blackface is always racist, whether you intend it to be / intend it to carry malice or not.
....
Yeah, that statement is just dumb. Seriously, if by blackface you just mean painting yourself to have a dark skin tone, you should be able to reflect on that and realise that it's a pretty silly thing to say.
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A not-insignificant portion of a minority group that has long been discriminated against finds the act of wearing makeup to appear black as offensive. Doing so unaware of that is ignorance and best left to be a teaching moment (as hopefully this case ends up being). Doing so in-spite of knowing that, means you're okay with offending members of a marginalized minority group for the sole purpose of a costume. That's certainly on the spectrum of racism to me.
Yeah, it's a fine line. If you don't "allow" that, should you allow white people to wear dreads? An Asian inspired prom dress? Eat tacos?
I just grew up where it was a common belief not to wear blackface, exaggerated or not, and if you did you realized it could be seen as offensive and took the heat for it. If you don't want to appear offensive, insensitive or racist, all you have to do is not put on black makeup, so to me, this has always been a non-issue.
But I can certainly appreciate the argument that there was no ill-intent or malicious in doing blackface, but that doesn't mean it won't be seen as offensive by certain groups or people. I'll just not be able to wrap my head around people who feel the need to tell minorities what is and isn't offensive to them and tell them that they lack critical thinking skills if they disagree with me.
Last edited by Oling_Roachinen; 05-15-2018 at 04:03 AM.
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Is it demeaning? Implying racial inferiority/superiority? Not even stereotyping? Nope, none of those? Okay then, not racist.
It's ironic that you're arguing for nuance while taking the least nuanced position posible.
Is it blackface? Yes. (I understand people are caught up on the origins of blackface to argue this point, but this is blackface)
Is blackface racist? Yes.
Racism isn’t always the act of demeaning, implying superiority, or stereotyping. Racism can also be an act that serves as reference. As GGG said, do you think it’s ok to use the n-word amongst your white friends as a term of endearment? No? Then why is putting dark makeup on to appear black ok?
There’s nothing ironic about it, using nuance is key, and your stance of “here’s what racism is, nothing else is racist but this” is what lacks nuance.
Again, you and anyone else who doesn’t think this was racist can feel free to explain why you don’t use the n-word amongst your white friends as a term of endearment. This isn’t just about the intent of an action. If you think the racism deeply rooted in our, and many other cultures, is distinguishable just by “they’re trying to be mean” then you’ve got learning to do.
Is it blackface? Yes. (I understand people are caught up on the origins of blackface to argue this point, but this is blackface)
Is blackface racist? Yes.
Racism isn’t always the act of demeaning, implying superiority, or stereotyping. Racism can also be an act that serves as reference. As GGG said, do you think it’s ok to use the n-word amongst your white friends as a term of endearment? No? Then why is putting dark makeup on to appear black ok?
There’s nothing ironic about it, using nuance is key, and your stance of “here’s what racism is, nothing else is racist but this” is what lacks nuance.
Again, you and anyone else who doesn’t think this was racist can feel free to explain why you don’t use the n-word amongst your white friends as a term of endearment. This isn’t just about the intent of an action. If you think the racism deeply rooted in our, and many other cultures, is distinguishable just by “they’re trying to be mean” then you’ve got learning to do.
I call my wife ##### all the time as a term of endearment.
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Tips for racists: If you are making a sign with the big bold letters "We Speak English" maybe spend a few minutes checking your spelling.
This has gotten lost in the 'blackface' discussion but I think it's worth addressing.
I was on a 457 Visa in Australia from 2011-2014. My first week there I went to a flea market and found a little trinket to send home. I started chatting with the vendor and he asked me where I was from, why I was in Australia, etc. Despite me being a customer he quickly pivoted to accusing me of taking away a job from an Australian. I am an English speaking Caucasian.
This "We Speak English" I think has more to do with Xenophobia than racism, although obviously they are closely intertwined. Australia has a long history of populist Xenophobia, particularly against Asians, going back to the 70's. They also have an even longer history of racism against Aboriginals.
I think a lot of what we refer to as racism is actually more xenophobia. In my experience, most people that talk negatively about race in Canada (with the obvious exception of Canadian Aboriginals) talk about it in terms of xenophobia rather than racism. I think the "lady" in Lethbridge falls in this category. I suspect she doesn't believe that white people are naturally superior to Arabs but rather that Canadian culture is superior to Arab culture. I could be wrong of course, but her drunken rant wasn't racist in nature but it was xenophobic. Racism and xenophobia usually have different underlying motivators. The ways of dealing with them are also different. I don't know the statistics for sure but I would bet that about 100% of racists are also xenophobes, while the number of xenophobes that are racists is much less. This makes it difficult to address xenophobia on it's own merits when it's often so closely tied to racism.
Maybe just something to keep in mind when throwing around the term 'racism'.
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No, blackface is always racist, whether you intend it to be / intend it to carry malice or not.
There's no room for context? It's rigidly black or white, pardon the pun?
How about saying the word "######"? (the "n-word" as I assume the board will filter it) Obviously hugely racist in most circumstances, but is it too always racist whether intended to carry malice or not? Is my use of it now inherently racist? Is a professor racist if he uses it in a university class on race?
I think a lot of what we refer to as racism is actually more xenophobia. In my experience, most people that talk negatively about race in Canada (with the obvious exception of Canadian Aboriginals) talk about it in terms of xenophobia rather than racism. I think the "lady" in Lethbridge falls in this category. I suspect she doesn't believe that white people are naturally superior to Arabs but rather that Canadian culture is superior to Arab culture. I could be wrong of course, but her drunken rant wasn't racist in nature but it was xenophobic. Racism and xenophobia usually have different underlying motivators. The ways of dealing with them are also different. I don't know the statistics for sure but I would bet that about 100% of racists are also xenophobes, while the number of xenophobes that are racists is much less. This makes it difficult to address xenophobia on it's own merits when it's often so closely tied to racism.
Agreed. Brexit was motivated largely by resentment of Poles and other Eastern Europeans taking jobs and housing regarded as scarce by the working class in England. Black South Africans riot against black African immigrants for the same reason. Nativism =/= racism.
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If this day gets you riled up, you obviously aren't numb to the disappointment yet to be a real fan.
There's no room for context? It's rigidly black or white, pardon the pun?
How about saying the word "######"? (the "n-word" as I assume the board will filter it) Obviously hugely racist in most circumstances, but is it too always racist whether intended to carry malice or not? Is my use of it now inherently racist? Is a professor racist if he uses it in a university class on race?
Context absolutely matters, let's not be silly.
It’s a racist term, no matter how you use it. Full stop.
If a professor is using it, he’s talking about it as a racist term. It doesn’t mean their usage of it is necessarily offensive or wrong just to say, but yeah, it’s still a racist term.
So then you agree that it's not always offensive to say a word that is historically racist? That the context of the situation matters.
Does it not then follow that it's not always offensive to perform an action that is historically racist? That again, the context of this particular situation matters too?
Let's make this super simple for you guys. Don't wear makeup to make your skin appear darker for a costume of an ethnicity that isn't your own. Because you dont have to and its fricking stupid and you will be humiliated publically. Why is this so hard for people?
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Let's make this super simple for you guys. Don't wear makeup to make your skin appear darker for a costume of an ethnicity that isn't your own. Because you dont have to and its fricking stupid and you will be humiliated publically. Why is this so hard for people?
I agree but I need to ask: was the movie "White Chicks" racist (and/or sexist)?
Let's make this super simple for you guys. Don't wear makeup to make your skin appear darker for a costume of an ethnicity that isn't your own. Because you dont have to and its fricking stupid and you will be humiliated publically. Why is this so hard for people?
What if you are black, and want to dress up as a Geisha? I need to know all the rules.
I agree but I need to ask: was the movie "White Chicks" racist (and/or sexist)?
It is pretty obviously intentionally racist and sexist. No wait, it's only sexist because racism can only exist when more privileged races act against less privileged races. No wait, maybe it's not sexist because black people are below women in our social hierarchy. No wait, maybe it is racist and sexist because the Wayans money and high social status puts them on one of the highest tiers of privilege in our society. No wait, this means the movie is classist and not racist or sexist. Simple!
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