the ongoing anti- racism, anti- oppression thread

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by icecube

So it has to be midnight black makeup with exaggerated giant lips to qualify as blackface? I don't think you'll find many black people who would agree with you there?

I dont think you will find many black people that would find that makeup on the teacher offensive to any degree.

[ResAlien]

Originally Posted by Wormius

Does it even have to be paint? Weren’t OJ Simpson masks a thing during Halloween many years ago? Does this extend to that or is this only an issue when makeup is applied to appear black?

An OJ mask is a different universe than paint, yes. As someone who lives in the states the answer is always no you should not paint yourself black. Blackface is so historically offensive that regardless of your intent it’s going to go badly.

[SebC]

Originally Posted by Oling_Roachinen

It wasn't all that long ago that our society was using blackface as a way to demean and insult black people, and by not that long ago I mean it still happens today. Who are we to decide what is and isn't still offensive to someone?

Who are we? Hopefully, we are objective, logical and rational. The alternative is that anything that someone deems offensive is treated as improper, and that's clearly untenable as anyone can be offended by anything at any time. It's also quite insulting to suggest that third parties can't make sound justments about this sort of thing. You can even have empathy for how the offended feels and still fairly assess that their feelings are not justified.


If you were brought up having been taught that someone waving at you is offensive, you would consider yourself a victim when it happens. But you would be wrong, and the harm you felt would have been caused not by the person who made a harmless gesture but by the person who taught you to feel slighted by it.


In pushing the definition of racism beyond what is logical, we can actually create new victims who would otherwise not exist, because they are victims of the responses that we'd be conditioning.

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by transplant99

I dont think you will find many black people that would find that makeup on the teacher offensive to any degree.

Dude, seems like every year a non-black celebrity dresses up as someone black and is blasted by large numbers of people who find it offensive. You may not find it offensive, but you certainly don't speak for everyone. We aren't talking one or two fringe radicals here.

Look up Julianne Hough and Antoine Griezmann blackface.

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by SebC

Who are we? Hopefully, we are objective, logical and rational.

Objective, logical and rational enough to simply not use black make up to appear black? It's not like someone needs to bend over backwards to avoid being offensive in this situation.

Originally Posted by SebC

The alternative is that anything that someone deems offensive is treated as improper, and that's clearly untenable as anyone can be offended by anything at any time.

I agree that there's a line. But there's a difference between one person being offended for the sake of being offended and a group of people being offended because of the history of the offense.

We're also talking about a teacher. The simple fact is, whether you believe its logical, intelligent or not, some people take offense to blackface of any kind. A teacher should know this and avoid it.

Waving is a social norm in our society, blackface is not. So I don't think the comparison is at all fair. However, if you knew a large population of people who took offense to being waved at, and you simply continued waving at them because you had the right to do so and didn't care about offending them, that's your prerogative - you obviously wouldn't expect them to like you and treat you as anything but the dickhead you're being. It's really not much of a challenge to simply not wear blackface and not offend anyone in doing so. Most people go there whole lives doing so.

[SebC]

Originally Posted by Oling_Roachinen

We're also talking about a teacher. The simple fact is, whether you believe its logical, intelligent or not, some people take offense to blackface of any kind. A teacher should know this and avoid it.

This is the correct choice pragmatically. But ideally what should happen is the teacher teaches what blackface is, why it was historically denigrating, and why what she is doing is different. Good luck trying to do that, though.

Edit: not sure what grade she teaches, so maybe not.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by Oling_Roachinen

Dude, seems like every year a non-black celebrity dresses up as someone black and is blasted by large numbers of people who find it offensive. You may not find it offensive, but you certainly don't speak for everyone. We aren't talking one or two fringe radicals here.

Look up Julianne Hough and Antoine Griezmann blackface.

Niether do you I might add.

And this is NOT blackface, so lose that narrative if you want a rational discussion.

I just don't believe for a second that any significant portion of the black community would find anything remotely offensive about this particular incident. At least those with a modicum of logical and critical thinking abilities, of which 99.9% are I would guess.

Logically, critically, even emotionally...there is just nothing to be offended by other than the fact a white person is portraying a black person in a very light and fun way.

Unless the suggestion is that no one should be identified as black because they are black that is, and again, that makes no sense whatsoever.

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Niether do you I might add.

At no point have I said as much, but you're the one claiming 99.9% of the black community would not find it offensive. And those that do lack critical thinking.

Originally Posted by transplant99

And this is NOT blackface, so lose that narrative if you want a rational discussion.

Well that depends entirely on who you ask. I mean the article is titled "Alberta school apologizes for blackface."

Originally Posted by transplant99

I just don't believe for a second that any significant portion of the black community would find anything remotely offensive about this particular incident. At least those with a modicum of logical and critical thinking abilities, of which 99.9% are I would guess.

Then, again, please feel free to look up the numerous celebrities, politicians, university, and today's teacher, who had to apologize because of the backlash that was received for doing so.

Originally Posted by transplant99

Logically, critically, even emotionally...there is just nothing to be offended by other than the fact a white person is portraying a black person in a very light and fun way.

The same way that logically, critically, even emotionally, there is just nothing to be offended by being asked to avoid using dark makeup to appear black.

Originally Posted by transplant99

Unless the suggestion is that no one should be identified as black because they are black that is, and again, that makes no sense whatsoever.

I would agree that makes no sense....

[Flamenspiel]

What about Trudeau in India? Other then how stupid he looked in that costume, was it racist? I mean generally people look very bad when they do these things(including blackface among others). Is that not a penalty in itself?

We can just point out how stupid it looks, i remember one of the Canucks dressing up like that one year, I think he was trying to be JayZ.

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by Flamenspiel

What about Trudeau in India? Other then how stupid he looked in that costume, was it racist?.

If he would have painted his face brown? Yes. It would have been very clearly seen as racist without a doubt. He didn't though.

[Oling_Roachinen]

It was two weeks ago that Gigi Hadid and Vogue had to make an apology for photoshopping her too dark because of the numerous complaints. It's clear people are offended. If you don't think they should be, that's a fair argument. But if you're pretending people aren't offended by actions like this, like transplant99 is, that's just simply not the case.

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by Flamenspiel

We can just point out how stupid it looks, i remember one of the Canucks dressing up like that one year, I think he was trying to be JayZ.

Yeah, and Taylor Hall supported Torres costume. When you're on the same side of the debate as Hall and Torres, I think that's about as clear indication that you're on the wrong side.

But they always end up issuing an apologizing because of the backlash, for a reason.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by Oling_Roachinen

It was two weeks ago that Gigi Hadid and Vogue had to make an apology for photoshopping her too dark because of the numerous complaints. It's clear people are offended. If you don't think they should be, that's a fair argument. But if you're pretending people aren't offended by actions like this, like transplant99 is, that's just simply not the case.

Who are these offended people though? That's what i'm asking, and if its a small vocal group, then should we cater to them if the majority are not? So far who have we heard this from in this incident?

Im not saying no one is offended, anywhere, but thanks for that. Perhaps I am out of touch but through my interactions with the visible minorities in my life, I cant think of a single one who would give this kind of thing a second thought.

I am saying those that have any degree of critical thinking and are not on some sort of agenda, simply could not logically come to the conclusion that something this seemingly innocent could be taken as legitimately offensive.

Someone dressing up as someone else, seems like a really dumb hill to die on as far as racism and oppression goes. How else would she do so without being black when the panel is what it is on that show?

Again, maybe I am dead wrong and this will give rise to a huge backlash from blacks everywhere. I just give them more credit than that though.

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Who are these offended people though? That's what i'm asking, and if its a small vocal group, then should we cater to them if the majority are not? So far who have we heard this from in this incident?

This incident? It was nipped in the bud pretty quickly an apology issued and its a small Alberta teacher.

But for other incidents like this, you could look up the examples given, as suggested.
https://www.independent.co.uk/life-s...-a8335856.html

Gigi Hadid has apologised after her appearance on the cover of Vogue Italia was lambasted for the apparent use of “blackface”.

The model faced a huge backlash when the photo, which was taken by fashion photographer Steven Klein, was revealed yesterday, with people saying that she looked “completely unrecognisable” with her darkened skin.

Also, I think there's quite the irony saying "and if its a small vocal group, then should we cater to them if the majority are not?" in a thread about the oppression of minorities.

Yes, we probably should cater to the minorities if we want to address racism...

Also, I would agree it's a dumb hill to die on. But for one group, to them it's about the oppression they and their ancestors have faced by an oppressive, racist regime and the insulting and mocking attitudes still addressed towards them. To the other, it's white people who want the freedom to put black make up on their face.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by Oling_Roachinen

This incident? It was nipped in the bud pretty quickly an apology issued and its a small Alberta teacher.

But for other incidents like this, you could look up the examples given, as suggested.
https://www.independent.co.uk/life-s...-a8335856.html


Also, I think there's quite the irony saying "and if its a small vocal group, then should we cater to them if the majority are not?" in a thread about the oppression of minorities.

Yes, we probably should cater to the minorities if we want to address racism...

Also, I would agree it's a dumb hill to die on. But for one group, to them it's about the oppression they and their ancestors have faced by an oppressive, racist regime and the insulting and mocking attitudes still addressed towards them. To the other, it's white people who want the freedom to put black make up on their face.

Right...to the majority of them, we absolutely should.

I will ask this question...how does one dress up as another of a different color, without being that color? Or should dressing up as another race be shamed all together? Can black people dress as famous Asians for fun? Can indigenous dress as Middle Easterners for fun? Should Michael Jackson have been scorned for becoming lighter?

I honestly have no idea any more. Or maybe I never did.

[81MC]

Originally Posted by Oling_Roachinen

Well that depends entirely on who you ask. I mean the article is titled "Alberta school apologizes for blackface."

I think that’s a result of overly sensitive people moving the goal posts, combined with an over-sensationalized media giving the permaoutraged credence.
I’m sorry, but I think some people need to use their critical thinking skills a little bit more. There is no parallel between this ‘event’ and “blackface”.
If people want to be upset because there was:
A lack of racial representation in the school;
A lack of inclusivity, where a darker toned person would have wanted to be a part of the act but was uninvited;
A reality TV enactment that was probably more entertaining than the original etc,
Sure, be upset about everything all the time.

But anyone who honestly looks at this as a case of “blackface” is insulting to victims of actual racism, and reeks of a misunderstanding of history and social sciences. Off-colour no doubt, but it looks like they did the whole shtick quite well.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Right...to the majority of them, we absolutely should.

I will ask this question...how does one dress up as another of a different color, without being that color? Or should dressing up as another race be shamed all together? Can black people dress as famous Asians for fun? Can indigenous dress as Middle Easterners for fun? Should Michael Jackson have been scorned for becoming lighter?

I honestly have no idea any more. Or maybe I never did.

It's easy to dress up as Prince or Micheal Jackson without painting your face. In fact if you have to paint your face black to make your costume work perhaps you need to rethink that costume because if they are unidentifiable by anything but blackness you aren't working very hard.

I think there is an interesting question around generic vultures appropriation and Halloween costumes if Cowboy, Indian, Ninja, Samauri, Geisha, and other cultural generic costumes are offensive or not. And I think it depends on the costume and what is the intent of the wearer and the venue it's displayed in.

[transplant99]

The guy who's twitter this whole Elk Island thing seemed to emanate from.



https://twitter.com/BashirMohamed?re...Ctwgr%5Eauthor

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by GGG

It's easy to dress up as Prince or Micheal Jackson without painting your face. In fact if you have to paint your face black to make your costume work perhaps you need to rethink that costume because if they are unidentifiable by anything but blackness you aren't working very hard.

I think there is an interesting question around generic vultures appropriation and Halloween costumes if Cowboy, Indian, Ninja, Samauri, Geisha, and other cultural generic costumes are offensive or not. And I think it depends on the costume and what is the intent of the wearer and the venue it's displayed in.

If you say so.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by 81MC

I’m sorry, but I think some people need to use their critical thinking skills a little bit more. There is no parallel between this ‘event’ and “blackface”.

Unpack that. Why isn’t there any parallel to you?