[News] Flames place Shinkaruk, Poirier, and Wotherspoon on waivers UPD: All 3 clear

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Cleveland Steam Whistle

The problem with throwing Granlund in there with Lazar and Brouwer is they don't fill the same need as each other.

The actual need at every single position for a hockey team is not hitting or facewashing or attitude.

It's scoring more goals than the other team. Intentionally handicapping your ability to outscore the other team to fill those aesthetic wants is not filling a need.

It's true that Lazar could become as good as Granlund is right now.
It's untrue that Lazar is as good as Granlund is right now.
And Brouwer, I'm not going to touch that can of worms.

[GoJetsGo]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

Which isn't the base line expectation.

He would very likely be expected to put up better offensive numbers than we will expect from Garnet Hathaway, Troy Brouwer, Freddie Hamilton, Curtis Lazar, Luke Gazdic, Tanner Glass, and Matt Stajan*(goals, maybe a ceiling on ES points). While being a better penalty killer than Matt Stajan, Troy Brouwer, Luke Gazdic, Tanner Glass at the very least.

Expected to put up better offensive numbers than those players... while playing lesser minutes with players of that ilk.

Debatable.

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

While being a better penalty killer than Matt Stajan.

Again, subjective and debatable that he'd come 5th / 6th on our PK depth chart.

Your opinion, and one you're trying to suggest it's "out to lunch" to disagree with.

As you always do, you are nit picking to the extreme.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

The actual need at every single position for a hockey team is not hitting or facewashing or attitude.

It's scoring more goals than the other team. Intentionally handicapping your ability to outscore the other team to fill those aesthetic wants is not filling a need.

Those who believe strength, size and grit have no defined place in the game, the team or the lineup are uninformed about how the NHL works and how it succeeds.

[Caged Great]

It is frustrating to see this year where all the prospects and players had a legitimate opportunity to win spots all over the ice.

The only players that have stepped up at all have been Janko and Dube. For some of the prospects there is still time. For the rest, it's time to re-evaluate them and consider it a surprising development if they ever make the NHL at all. Guys like Poirier/Klimchuk/Shinkaruk for three.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

Those who believe strength, size and grit have no defined place in the game, the team or the lineup are uninformed about how the NHL works and how it succeeds.

Strength/Size are important from players who actually use those elements with the purpose of scoring more goals than the other team. When they're there for the sake of themselves, you are not accomplishing anything. Being bigger, stronger, and worse than the other team is not a valid goal.

"Grit" doesn't really have a defined place in the game. Look throughout history, especially recent history as teams continue to wise up and optimize their rosters (a cup roster today is much better than a roster five years ago even, and so forth), and you see that the best teams may or may not have grit - it's not a constant. It's an aesthetic. It's not a problem if it accompanies good play, but that doesn't mean it should substitute good play. It's great that Tkachuk/Bennett/Ferland/Giordano are bringing grit. It's not great if Glass or Crammarossa are bringing nothing but grit. Right now Lazar is closer to the latter group than he is to a good hockey player like Markus Granlund.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Caged Great

It is frustrating to see this year where all the prospects and players had a legitimate opportunity to win spots all over the ice.

The only players that have stepped up at all have been Janko and Dube. For some of the prospects there is still time. For the rest, it's time to re-evaluate them and consider it a surprising development if they ever make the NHL at all. Guys like Poirier/Klimchuk/Shinkaruk for three.

Klimchuk wasn't bad, and has a shot. Poirier may still come along now with more clean time. Shinkaruk had warts and we all knew that.

I'm not entirely happy with the AHL development either though.

[Caged Great]

In hindsight, that 2013 draft which was supposed to be so deep and talented, seems to be fairly mediocre at this point once you get past pick 14. Burakovsky, Mantha, Theodore and Dano seem to be the only quality guys past that point in the first round, and only Guentzel, Janmark, Lehkonen, Andrighetto and Pesce being the other quality pieces in rounds 2 and 3.

You'd expect more from a draft as hyped as that.

[Hot_Flatus]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Granlund got over 17 m per game last year to get his points. He also got a couple minutes per game of PP time. He gets neither of those in Calgary. He gets probably no PP time and maybe 9 minutes per game.

Plus, while +/- is a crap stat, within the team it has a bit more relevance. He was -19 (the third worst forward) whereas Sven was -6, Horvat was -7, Gaunce was -3, Burrows was -3 etc.

He had a grand total of 7 points on the pp last year so why would you equate his uptick in production solely to PP time? When on a line with Sutter he drove EV stength possession as well as anyone in the league so there's enough evidence to suggest there's more to him than just 19 goals last year.

Kid is a solid NHL body and he's used in PK, PP and EV situations, which is another indication that the coaching staff trust him and see a well rounded player. At his cap hit he would be a fantastic piece when compared to the boat anchors we know all to well in the Flames bottom 6.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by calgaryblood

Exactly. Nobody is saying Granlund is a top line center. Just that we lost the trade and it's possible Granlund would make the Flames as our bottom 3-4 is up for grabs.

Maybe the Flames did "lose" this trade. What I find aggravating in this discussion is the insistence by some that this loss was seemingly significant. It wasn't, because even now it is difficult to imagine where Granlund realistically fits on today's Flames roster, and how he might provide a tangible upgrade. He is the type of player who is so inconsequential as to be practically irrelevant in the grand scheme of things.

In other words: the Flames project to be a playoff team today with the possibility that they compete for the Division and a feasible chance to win a playoff round. The replacement of a bottom-six player with Granlund does not really affect that potential outcome any more than it does with other realistic internal options.

[Hot_Flatus]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

Those who believe strength, size and grit have no defined place in the game, the team or the lineup are uninformed about how the NHL works and how it succeeds.

This is equally as true for having a bottom six full of post apex lugs that cannot skate, contribute offensively or move up the lineup if needed.

Yet, for some reason people cut all the slack in the world to these types simply because they decide to get angry a handful of times a year and somehow offset the countless boneheaded plays and egregious inability to put the puck in the net in many fans eyes.

[The Fonz]

Originally Posted by Toonage

Fan 960 says cuts within the next 90 minutes (I guess this based on info Lou provided)

It's been 110 mins.

[Toonage]

Originally Posted by The Fonz

It's been 110 mins.

Take it up with the Fan or Loubardias I guess.

[dammage79]

Three o'clock is my guess. And I'm predicting a very disturbing cut of Rasmussen Andersson.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Hot_Flatus

He had a grand total of 7 points on the pp last year so why would you equate his uptick in production solely to PP time? When on a line with Sutter he drove EV stength possession as well as anyone in the league so there's enough evidence to suggest there's more to him than just 19 goals last year...

That is highly debatable. Granlund saw an uptick of +4% in his SP last year from his previous career average. I would wager that he is likely to see a reduction this year.

[Hot_Flatus]

I'm guessing Ken King is somehow involved and fudging this whole cut process up.

[DazzlinDino]

Originally Posted by Bourque's Twin

Who would've thought the 2013 draft dilemma of the Flames picking Poirier instead of hometown Shinkaruk would come down to having both on the team being put on waivers 4 years later?

I think this is a reflection that the Flames have higher expectations and are coveting a certain type of player that fits a certain mold. This might not be players we would have waved in other years but at every position the Flames just continue to get stronger.

Shinkaruk and Poirer at this point likely don't fit the criteria. They could have come in and been difference makers but for whatever reason just didn't step up. Every prospect including Shinkaruk, Poirier should watch highlights of Matthew Tkachuk. Matthew is a difference maker on so many levels, goes to the dirty areas, screens, initiates and intimidates, does so many things better than your average team player.

On another point I thought Foo played really good I think he has the ability but appears at this point trying to fit in, "maybe still adjusting the system". I believe the Flames are just looking for character, players drive and push that extra gear, but who and bring something that sets them apart.

[Jason14h]

Shinkaruk and Poirer at this point likely don't fit the criteria.

If the criteria is good enough to be an NHLer I agree.

These two just aren't good enough and never have been. It happens to ~33% of all first rounders. It's nothing new or special. Just shows why teams don't value late 1sts as much as fans.

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

Strength/Size are important from players who actually use those elements with the purpose of scoring more goals than the other team. When they're there for the sake of themselves, you are not accomplishing anything. Being bigger, stronger, and worse than the other team is not a valid goal.

"Grit" doesn't really have a defined place in the game. Look throughout history, especially recent history as teams continue to wise up and optimize their rosters (a cup roster today is much better than a roster five years ago even, and so forth), and you see that the best teams may or may not have grit - it's not a constant. It's an aesthetic. It's not a problem if it accompanies good play, but that doesn't mean it should substitute good play. It's great that Tkachuk/Bennett/Ferland/Giordano are bringing grit. It's not great if Glass or Crammarossa are bringing nothing but grit. Right now Lazar is closer to the latter group than he is to a good hockey player like Markus Granlund.

So where do Stone and Hamonic fit in? .... career .3 ppg players.

Was it a mistake playing Engelland (a .17 ppg player with the Flames and .19 ppg with Pittsburgh) almost as much as Hamilton?

I would suggest that the Oilers don't make the playoffs without trading Hall career .84 ppg player for Larsson a career .25 ppg player.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by Hot_Flatus

This is equally as true for having a bottom six full of post apex lugs that cannot skate, contribute offensively or move up the lineup if needed.

Yet, for some reason people cut all the slack in the world to these types simply because they decide to get angry a handful of times a year and somehow offset the countless boneheaded plays and egregious inability to put the puck in the net in many fans eyes.

Not sure what you're really talking about here since I've never professed to like goons or zero skill players. I prefer my gritty players to be skilled and be able to skate (ala Tkachuk and Ferland.)

But I know after 20 years of watching this league that you cannot win without some grit. Certainly you cannot win without skill either. But you need some players that bring both. Guys like Ferland, Tkachuk, Bennett, Backlund, etc.

Too many Granlund and Baertschi types and you'll be competing for the bottom of the league every year, not the Cup.

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by bubbsy

I'm sure i'll get slammed for this, but i must ask....

Any reason to question our AHL system, regarding the growth and development of the prospects going thru our AHL system?

Some may point to Jankowski as the counter argument, but i suppose his NCAA experience has played a large role in preparing him for pro hockey.

This is a few camps in a row where our AHL prospects just simply don't seem like they have progressed to a point where they can actually play in the NHL....

Huska.