[News] Dreger: Still sizable gap between Bennett and Flames

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

This doesn't make much sense. Bennett's deal should be one of the easier ones to make since it will be a bridge deal. Perhaps the Flames are pushing hard for a 3 year deal and the Bennett camp only wants 1-2 years?

A 3 year deal works best with the Flames current cap stucture. If the Flames sign him for 2 years and he breaks out they could require upwards of $15M in cap space to keep Bennett and Tkachuk in 2 years. That would mean they would have to dump a few of Frolik, Brouwer, Stone, Hamonic, or Brodie.

I don't get why people continue to say this. If anything, Bennett's contract is one of the more complicated precisely because his value is so difficult to nail down. More than likely one of the two sides will be disappointed with the outcome of this contract upon its completion—either the Flames will feel they paid too much or they will be frustrated that Bennett's next deal will be too expensive, or Bennett's camp will feel as though they left too much money on the table when all is said and done.

There is nothing terrible "easy" about this situation.

[Gaudfather]

The right deal is likely the deal where neither side feels comfortable with the outcome.

[Samonadreau]

Originally Posted by Gaudfather

The right deal is likely the deal where neither side feels comfortable with the outcome.

Probably also what the fans thought would get signed in the first place. Then we all throw our hands in the air and say "Wow, looks fair for both sides...what was the holdup?".

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

I don't get why people continue to say this. If anything, Bennett's contract is one of the more complicated precisely because his value is so difficult to nail down. More than likely one of the two sides will be disappointed with the outcome of this contract upon its completion—either the Flames will feel they paid too much or they will be frustrated that Bennett's next deal will be too expensive, or Bennett's camp will feel as though they left too much money on the table when all is said and done.

There is nothing terrible "easy" about this situation.

This is why short term contracts exist. The Monahan and Gaudreau contracts were significantly more complex because the term of the deal was such a variable and the $ amounts involved were so much larger.

I can't possibly believe either side is looking long term here and unless one side is being totally unreasonable, they can't be more than a few $100K apart.

The other deals I mentioned were $40 million deals with tremendous risk to the organization. This is nothing like that.

So I don't see the complexity here.

[JFK]

It's complex, if two sides see things different. And I'm sure it's more about term then dollars. Safe to awesome Bennett wants nothing more then a one year deal where he can cash in quickly if he breaks out. Flames might be pushing for a longer deal, hoping to use the fact Bennett hasn't reached his perceived potential yet to lock him down to a low dollar figure.

When you're in a cap world where UFA status comes quickly, things can get complex.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

This is why short term contracts exist. The Monahan and Gaudreau contracts were significantly more complex because the term of the deal was such a variable and the $ amounts involved were so much larger.

I can't possibly believe either side is looking long term here and unless one side is being totally unreasonable, they can't be more than a few $100K apart.

The other deals I mentioned were $40 million deals with tremendous risk to the organization. This is nothing like that.

So I don't see the complexity here.

The complexity is that Bennett wants to be paid on potential. The Flames want to pay based on his production so far. They are coming from very different sides. Monahan and Gaudreau were proven high scorers, they had proven their potential. Their market value was somewhat obvious. Bennett's is not. The agent is trying to maximize the contract, the Flames are trying to minimize it.

The more long term the deal the higher Bennett wants to be paid because he probably thinks he could be like a Draisaitl soon. Therefore it seems like no long term deal makes sense for the Flames because Bennett's ask would be outrageous in comparison to what he's proven in the NHL thus far. So logically only a shorter term deal makes sense. But you'd have to think the Flames and Bennett could disagree quite a bit on even a 1-2 year deal and how much it should be worth. I could see the Flames arguing 2.5 and Bennett's agent looking for 3.5. That could be considered "far apart". Doesn't really mean much as both sides could budge before training camp. I think the talk of Europe is just a bit of grand posturing. It really wouldn't make any sense for Bennett to hold out long term. I'm sure they realize that.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by JFK

It's complex, if two sides see things different. And I'm sure it's more about term then dollars. Safe to awesome Bennett wants nothing more then a one year deal where he can cash in quickly if he breaks out. Flames might be pushing for a longer deal, hoping to use the fact Bennett hasn't reached his perceived potential yet to lock him down to a low dollar figure.

When you're in a cap world where UFA status comes quickly, things can get complex.

Understood and I concede there is complexity in any contract negotiation in today's NHL. But sometimes deals take time to negotiate not because they are complex, but because one or both sides dig in their heels.

[EldrickOnIce]

Originally Posted by PaperBagger'14

Saying Bennett wasn't offered PP time is simply not accurate. He averaged 1:14 per game on the PP which puts him ahead of most forwards with the exceptions of Monahan, Gaudreau, Versteeg (lots of time spent as the PP quarterback), Brouwer, Backlund and Tkachuk. I'll agree that he should have been ahead of Brouwer, however his PP points/60 is well below that of everyone above him and even many below. His PPP/60 puts him in similar company as chiasson (2.400 to 2.309) with Brouwer at 3.692.

http://www.quanthockey.com/nhl/teams...ats.html#stats

Bennett isn't as good now as the peers he's trying to displace. To argue he needs more PP time to showcase himself isn't appropriate given his current body of work.

Thank you.
The narrative that Bennett is somehow hard done by is feeble. He hasn't earned any more than he's got. I expect that will change this year - and he will get increased pp time, assuming he gets his ass to camp on time.

[Gaudfather]

Originally Posted by EldrickOnIce

Thank you.
The narrative that Bennett is somehow hard done by is feeble. He hasn't earned any more than he's got. I expect that will change this year - and he will get increased pp time, assuming he gets his ass to camp on time.

Bennett knows he cannot afford to miss training camp this year. Guys like Jankowski, Lazar, Poirier and Foo are all chomping at the bit to be given a shot. If Bennett misses camp and one of these guys steps up, his negotiating power with the Flames only erodes further. And Bennett knows this. He may not get the deal he wants, but will get the deal he deserves.

[Reggie Dunlop]

Originally Posted by Gaudfather

Bennett knows he cannot afford to miss training camp this year. Guys like Jankowski, Lazar, Poirier and Foo are all chomping at the bit to be given a shot. If Bennett misses camp and one of these guys steps up, his negotiating power with the Flames only erodes further. And Bennett knows this. He may not get the deal he wants, but will get the deal he deserves.

THIS.

The team has sent out signals that camp is an open competition and jobs are available.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by PaperBagger'14

Saying Bennett wasn't offered PP time is simply not accurate. He averaged 1:14 per game on the PP which puts him ahead of most forwards with the exceptions of Monahan, Gaudreau, Versteeg (lots of time spent as the PP quarterback), Brouwer, Backlund and Tkachuk. I'll agree that he should have been ahead of Brouwer, however his PP points/60 is well below that of everyone above him and even many below. His PPP/60 puts him in similar company as chiasson (2.400 to 2.309) with Brouwer at 3.692.

http://www.quanthockey.com/nhl/teams...ats.html#stats

Bennett isn't as good now as the peers he's trying to displace. To argue he needs more PP time to showcase himself isn't appropriate given his current body of work.

Sorry, but this analysis is brutally misleading at best.

He was 7th on the team, among forwards, for PP time. That means he wasn't a regular on the 1st or 2nd unit.

He was 202nd in the league for PP time, at 99.59 minutes.

Even worse, he was 253rd in the league at minutes per game, at 1.14 (all numbers among forwards only).

These numbers rank him lower than offensive dynamos like Drake Caggiula, Rene Bourque, Kenny Agostino and Bryan Bickell.

As for the points per 60 on the PP, it also matters who you are out there with. Brouwer played quite a bit on the first unit with Gaudreau, and otherwise on the 2nd unit. That's going to help your stats. Bennett was out there with Chiasson more often than not.

Another thing about being on the 3rd PP is that you tend to get less time per attempt. What I mean by that is the 1st unit often gets a minute or more - plenty of time to generate something. The 2nd unit might get 30-40 seconds. The 3rd unit will typically gets 15-30 seconds, much less time to try and create something.

[Par]

Originally Posted by Reggie Dunlop

THIS.

The team has sent out signals that camp is an open competition and jobs are available.

This is only half true, they will sent signals at the start of preseason that it is open competition but once regular season starts, washed up vets like Brouwer will be on the top PP unit, even though younger guys who deserve it will not get much PP. so you cannot blame Sam Bennett for holding out.

If Sam Bennett says trade me and they trade him to the Ducks(just a example), I see Sam Bennett being a 60-70 point, 2 way centre, tough to play against(like Kesler but better offensively.)

[jlh2640]

I knew this was coming, part of the reason why Jagr or Iginla likely wont ever be Flames at this point is the unknown amount of cap space.

[Greybeard]

Originally Posted by Par

If Sam Bennett says trade me and they trade him to the Ducks(just a example), I see Sam Bennett being a 60-70 point, 2 way centre, tough to play against(like Kesler but better offensively.)

Bennett is not going to take Getzlaf or Kesler job as 1st or 2nd line center. I know you only used the Ducks as an example but most teams have a one two center combo that clearly outplayed Bennett last year. Having said that I think we need to sign him. Who knows how Backlund negotiations go. His potential is big.

[Robbob]

Originally Posted by Par

This is only half true, they will sent signals at the start of preseason that it is open competition but once regular season starts, washed up vets like Brouwer will be on the top PP unit, even though younger guys who deserve it will not get much PP. so you cannot blame Sam Bennett for holding out.

If Sam Bennett says trade me and they trade him to the Ducks(just a example), I see Sam Bennett being a 60-70 point, 2 way centre, tough to play against(like Kesler but better offensively.)

I also see him as a tough 2 way center, in part because the flames have been very patient and letting him learn how to play in all three zones. There is a reason they are keeping him at center and letting him cut his teeth at that position. It isn't an easy position and bares a lot of responsibility. Long term he will be a better and more complete player. In fact I think it shows the how highly the organization thinks of him.

[Par]

Originally Posted by Greybeard

Bennett is not going to take Getzlaf or Kesler job as 1st or 2nd line center. I know you only used the Ducks as an example but most teams have a one two center combo that clearly outplayed Bennett last year. Having said that I think we need to sign him. Who knows how Backlund negotiations go. His potential is big.

I don't mean that Sam Bennett, will displace Getzlaf or Kesler this year, next year or the year after that. I mean in the long term, the Ducks would develop Sam Bennett better than the Flames, the same way that the Ducks developed Getzlaf.

As for Backlund, if this is the way that Brad is going to negotiate(which is best way), than Backlund contract talks need to begin, at the earliest because it will take forever with Backlund.

[heep223]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Brouwer played quite a bit on the first unit with Gaudreau.

Ugh I forgot how frustrated I was with Brouwer last season until I read this and had a physical feeling of revulsion. Thanks for reminding me

[Snuffleupagus]

Dreger is no good

As usual

[PaperBagger'14]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Sorry, but this analysis is brutally misleading at best.

He was 7th on the team, among forwards, for PP time. That means he wasn't a regular on the 1st or 2nd unit.

He was 202nd in the league for PP time, at 99.59 minutes.

Even worse, he was 253rd in the league at minutes per game, at 1.14 (all numbers among forwards only).

These numbers rank him lower than offensive dynamos like Drake Caggiula, Rene Bourque, Kenny Agostino and Bryan Bickell.

As for the points per 60 on the PP, it also matters who you are out there with. Brouwer played quite a bit on the first unit with Gaudreau, and otherwise on the 2nd unit. That's going to help your stats. Bennett was out there with Chiasson more often than not.

Another thing about being on the 3rd PP is that you tend to get less time per attempt. What I mean by that is the 1st unit often gets a minute or more - plenty of time to generate something. The 2nd unit might get 30-40 seconds. The 3rd unit will typically gets 15-30 seconds, much less time to try and create something.

I would argue he was 6th among forwards for PP time as I stated Versteeg played primarily quarterback meaning he did have a spot on the top 2 lines.

Secondly it doesn't matter much to me where he ranks NHL wise for PP TOI, as he has to earn it in Calgary, not Carolina.

When it comes to the PPP/60 you conveniently use quality of teammate to support your argument but not quality of competition. I'm not about to look it up as I honestly don't care to and also I don't put a ton of weight into those stats, but you can't say he's playing with worse guys without also acknowledging that the opponents wont be the defensive dynamos the first unit is playing against.

Edit:

202nd in the league for PP time:

202/30 teams=6.7ish so that puts him 6-7th forward on average per team.

253rd in the league for PP min/game

253/30 teams =8.43 so between 8-9th forward PP time per game.

Those stats you posted look a lot more intimidating without context and relativity.

[greentree]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Kristen Odland‏Verified account @Kristen_Odland 13m13 minutes ago

Just spoke to #Flames GM Brad Treliving: “We’re not really focused on threats" & added he hopes to have something done before training camp.

Hello