The Next Flames Coach | News & Rumors

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by Caged Great

I look at his drafts, and the ones that he was in charge of were all horrid. The only marginal player that became anything was Prust. He started to let the scouting department to have more freedom to do what they wanted and things changed.

Part of that is on the owners. The Flames' scouting staff in his early years was tiny and underfunded. Also, when he started, they didn't have their own farm team and had no control over how (or whether) their prospects were developed. It took time to build all that up, and that's when results began to improve.

You have to remember that in 2004, the owners were hanging on for dear life, hoping that the NHL would put in a salary cap and make it possible for them to compete in the future. They had a tiny budget and ran with a skeleton staff in every department. There was no point in trying to compete with the unlimited funds of teams like the Rangers and Red Wings; a small-market team could only try to hold on until the rules were changed.

He stole one guy he was familiar with from his previous coaching job, and that's about it.

Players on the '04 team acquired by Sutter: Reinprecht (from Colorado), Nieminen (from Chicago), Nilson (from Florida), Simon (from NY Rangers), Oliwa (from Boston), Kiprusoff (from San Jose).

He decimated the cup team, shedding guys like Commodore and Lydman for basically nothing and let other guys go needlessly (Conroy/Gelinas) in order to sign a couple has beens in Amonte/Friesen and McCarty.

Commodore and Lydman are on him; though Commodore, while a fan favourite, was really not a significant loss on the ice. Conroy signed for big money as a free agent in L.A. before the lockout, when there was still no cap. (He later admitted it was a mistake.) Gelinas also left as a UFA. Sutter didn't let them go because he preferred Amonte and the others; he let them go because he had no choice.

There was a good reason why the Flames floundered after 04, and it's pretty much entirely on the shoulders of Darryl.

Yeah. Totally his fault that the Flames were a budget team and there was no salary cap. Totally his fault that players who didn't think a cap was coming bolted for more money than he had to give them.

[Calgary4LIfe]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

I know it's cool and all to crap on Brent Sutter but the guy is a very good coach and his record of winning speaks for itself. He did a fantastic job in New Jersey and in Calgary he simply ran into an issue that he had never faced before in a leadership core that wouldn't buy into his system. Despite never having support from the teams leader he still managed three straight 90+ point seasons out of that team. Bob Hartley ran into the same issue in his first season as Flames head coach which is why the team finally came to their realization that it was time to part ways with #12 rather than continually trying to build around him.

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

After seeing Greg Gilbert totally bomb and go through other successful junior coaches that couldn't translate to the pros like Don Hay I would much rather go with an experienced and proven NHL head coach as it's no fun watching your favorite team crash and burn around a head coach that is in over his head. If Treliving absolutely has to have a young guy I would at least hope it's a guy like Travis Green that has success coaching professional players. The junior to pro jump is too much for the majority of coaches in their first NHL stop. If a guy like Dave Lowry ever turns into a good NHL head coach the chances are it would be in his second NHL head coaching job not his first. I don't want the Flames to be the place for these guys to test the waters.

I actually feel Brent Sutter should be included in your second post, rather than you defending him. Exactly what made him a good coach? Results?

His stint in New Jersey was unspectacular. New Jersey was a well-oiled machine that played a system very similar to the one he decided to implement. He neither found more success there from the previous staff, nor did they experience a drop off.

Calgary? He took a perennial playoff team into 3 straight misses. That's results.

That is where your argument starts and ends. Let me expand mine further.

Let's examine Brent's system in detail.

Defensive zone exits: Along the boards. Forwards have to come back deep into the zone to help defencemen. All passes must be up along the boards to avoid coughing up the puck in high-danger areas.

Offensive zone entries/play-style: Mostly dump and chase. Forwards who carried the puck over the opposing blueline either dropped it off along the blueline towards the boards, or were to chip it into the corner and chase (that is including carry-ins). A cycle would then be established, and offence generated from the cycle.

How in the world can this system work for a team that is a) the oldest in the NHL, and b) the smallest? That was the composition of the team back then. They got murdered along the boards. Defensively, the opposing forwards/defencemen headed straight to the boards to intercept the pass as they read the system 1/3 of the way in Brent's first season, or would just intercept the forward trying to collect the puck along the boards.

Offensive cycles were difficult to generate anything off from because the opposing teams were usually bigger and younger.

This team's 'runs' happened when they played off the rush. This was when I first noticed how much better they looked, and I still remember Feaster, Sutter and even Pat Steinberg talking about how this team was not built to score on the rush. That may have been true, but they were even less built to score off the cycle.

Sutter couldn't adapt his system for the Flames. In many ways, he was Gilbert, Hay, Page... his team under-performed. Keenan - who was extremely hands off and what I considered 'semi-retired' - actually got much more from the Flames as a unit.

As for Hartley taking the team over and how much he 'sucked' - well, he took over a team that was 3 years removed from the playoffs, 3 years older, less talented and also had a Kipprusoff that was not even close to the Kipper that we all fondly remember. He also didn't get the benefit of a full training camp in that lockout-shortened season. He still made the playoffs one year on a much younger team without the reliability of a Kipper too. He had more success as a coach with the Flames than Sutter ever did.

This is why I brought up Brent - It am not being cool for crapping on Brent. I want a coach with a track record for changing systems from one team to the next, and being flexible enough playing a different style according to the composition of the team. Brent was not able to do that. To me, he was Greg Gilbert and the other junior coaches who weren't able to get it done. I am fine with a coach who is from junior, the NCAA, NHL or even from Europe - as long as he has a track record of experience playing different styles according to what the strengths and weaknesses of the teams are. Brent is just a very good and fairly recent example of a coach that wasn't.

[dissentowner]

Brent was not my favourite coach but let's not get carried away by comparing him to Gilbert. Nobody was or ever will be that terrible.

[Da_Chief]

Pierre Page, Don Hay, Greg Gilbert and Jim Playfair are in a league of their own.

[Dion]

Originally Posted by Da_Chief

Pierre Page, Don Hay, Greg Gilbert and Jim Playfair are in a league of their own.

A friends father was the carpenter for the Flames when Page was coaching. Page was famous for kicking down the door to his office when he got angry. The father lost count of trhe number of doors he had to replace.

[Caged Great]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

Part of that is on the owners. The Flames' scouting staff in his early years was tiny and underfunded. Also, when he started, they didn't have their own farm team and had no control over how (or whether) their prospects were developed. It took time to build all that up, and that's when results began to improve.

You have to remember that in 2004, the owners were hanging on for dear life, hoping that the NHL would put in a salary cap and make it possible for them to compete in the future. They had a tiny budget and ran with a skeleton staff in every department. There was no point in trying to compete with the unlimited funds of teams like the Rangers and Red Wings; a small-market team could only try to hold on until the rules were changed.

Yes, and once cost certainty came in after 05 and the team built a farm team, they could have stocked it with quality draft picks to feed that team and trusted the scouting department. Instead we got Leland Irving a litany of other guys that if they hit their potential, they'd be 4th liners/fringe D-men (guys like Pelech, Watt, Sutter, Baldwin in 05, all the 2006 picks after Irving, all the 2007 picks after Backlund). That is what I'm critiquing Sutter about is his lack of ability to draft, which did screw the team up pretty good. He was slightly better at trading, although he mostly dealt picks, which harmed the team long term.

There is a reason why the team spun its wheels from 06-13 until Feaster finally pulled the plug. No infusion of youth at all until things neared the end.

Players on the '04 team acquired by Sutter: Reinprecht (from Colorado), Nieminen (from Chicago), Nilson (from Florida), Simon (from NY Rangers), Oliwa (from Boston), Kiprusoff (from San Jose).

Fringe depth guys + Kipper. It turned out the chemistry was perfect between some of the guys (Nilson/Nemo/Donovan for example).

Commodore and Lydman are on him; though Commodore, while a fan favourite, was really not a significant loss on the ice. Conroy signed for big money as a free agent in L.A. before the lockout, when there was still no cap. (He later admitted it was a mistake.) Gelinas also left as a UFA. Sutter didn't let them go because he preferred Amonte and the others; he let them go because he had no choice.

Yeah. Totally his fault that the Flames were a budget team and there was no salary cap. Totally his fault that players who didn't think a cap was coming bolted for more money than he had to give them.

Commodore was a top 4 d-man for a number of years after, so that was a bit of a loss, although he did fade after a while. Both could have been viable depth guys, which would have been useful. Instead the Flames had to move Ference and Kobasew for Stuart in 07 to replace some of that depth, which caused problems in the room and prevented the Flames from being able to sign cheaper contracts.

Overall as a GM he was only a few steps up from Risebrough, especially during the end. Surprisingly, despite being harsh in my criticism, I really liked Darryl as part of the organization and would be thrilled if he returned as the coach. He just should not have a huge amount of input on the makeup of the team itself. The Kings got a lot slower this year and were beat by a quicker team. That was a problem with the Flames as well back before the rebuild. They got too veteran heavy and that may have been due to Darryl's input.

[T@T]

Originally Posted by Da_Chief

Pierre Page, Don Hay, Greg Gilbert and Jim Playfair are in a league of their own.

One isn't like the others, Gilbert not only is a brutal coach he's a pompous goof of a human being as well. After his latest firing lets hope his next job is isolated from other people.

[FireGilbert]

More Gilbert bashing please!

[Boreal]

Originally posted by Calgary4LifeThis is why I brought up Brent - It am not being cool for crapping on Brent. I want a coach with a track record for changing systems from one team to the next, and being flexible enough playing a different style according to the composition of the team. Brent was not able to do that. To me, he was Greg Gilbert and the other junior coaches who weren't able to get it done. I am fine with a coach who is from junior, the NCAA, NHL or even from Europe - as long as he has a track record of experience playing different styles according to what the strengths and weaknesses of the teams are. Brent is just a very good and fairly recent example of a coach that wasn't.

Your points are very salient. What I haven't heard anyone in the media reiterate in their coaching speculation is what Burke said in his Fan590 interview. He basically described him & Treliving (plus Conroy/Pascall) will draft up a job description for a new coach and whoever best meets that job description will be hired.

If people want to speculate (media included) I just wish they would start by speculating on what that job description will look like, then speculate on who would meet it. Give some insight, like you just provided.

Burke and Trelivingare not stupid and very process oriented. Whatever choice they make, there will be a process.

[saXon]

Ah, more discussion and debate. Love this news...

[sureLoss]

Elliotte Friedman @FriedgeHNIC
Couple members of the coaching fraternity believe MIN stepped up after Boudreau visit to OTT yesterday. Stay tuned...

[Finger Cookin]

Originally Posted by saXon

Ah, more discussion and debate. Love this news...

Truth is, if you strictly want news, you either wait for a new sureloss thread, follow some of the connected hockey media on twitter, or set whatever your sports app of choice is to give you a notification when there's Flames news. There will never be a news thread here on CP that is only news. It's just the way it is.

[Badgers Nose]

Originally Posted by sureLoss

Elliotte Friedman @FriedgeHNIC
Couple members of the coaching fraternity believe MIN stepped up after Boudreau visit to OTT yesterday. Stay tuned...

If the knock on BB is never winning the big prize in the NHL, then Ottawa is perfect. He will never really have another legitimate shot at it again. BB could be there a long time.

[VladtheImpaler]

If he actually wants to win something, it is not happening in Ottawa or Minnesota - at least not in the next 5 years, so that is as good as "ever" as far as coach's tenure is concerned.
You would think he has enough self-confidence and patience to wait for a better offer. Mind you, if they offer him $5M/season, money is good enough.

[Azure]

Didn't Don Hay have a really successful coaching career in the WHL after he left the Flames?

[sureLoss]

Bruce Garrioch @SunGarrioch
The #Sens have held more talks with Boudreau's camp. He did board a flight from Ottawa to Anaheim today.

[Toonage]

Nm

[MisterJoji]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

Part of that is on the owners. The Flames' scouting staff in his early years was tiny and underfunded. Also, when he started, they didn't have their own farm team and had no control over how (or whether) their prospects were developed. It took time to build all that up, and that's when results began to improve.

You have to remember that in 2004, the owners were hanging on for dear life, hoping that the NHL would put in a salary cap and make it possible for them to compete in the future. They had a tiny budget and ran with a skeleton staff in every department. There was no point in trying to compete with the unlimited funds of teams like the Rangers and Red Wings; a small-market team could only try to hold on until the rules were changed.



Players on the '04 team acquired by Sutter: Reinprecht (from Colorado), Nieminen (from Chicago), Nilson (from Florida), Simon (from NY Rangers), Oliwa (from Boston), Kiprusoff (from San Jose).



Commodore and Lydman are on him; though Commodore, while a fan favourite, was really not a significant loss on the ice. Conroy signed for big money as a free agent in L.A. before the lockout, when there was still no cap. (He later admitted it was a mistake.) Gelinas also left as a UFA. Sutter didn't let them go because he preferred Amonte and the others; he let them go because he had no choice.



Yeah. Totally his fault that the Flames were a budget team and there was no salary cap. Totally his fault that players who didn't think a cap was coming bolted for more money than he had to give them.

Just wanted to add that his Conroy replacement, Langkow, was picked up for Saprykin and Gauthier. Huge win there. Also Huselius for some scrubs (I want to say Montador and a E level prospect?) and signed Hamrilik and drafted Phaneuf, who's game incidentally dropped significantly after Hamrilik left. Darryl was a good GM up until about 2008ish and then imploded ... hard. Jokinen, Kotalik, Higgins, Erikkson, never acquiring a solid back-up or long term plan in goal after Kipper, etc.

[frodo_t_baggins]

Tanguay, cammalleri, bourque and Glencross were all good acquisitions too. The 08-09 team was a legitimate contender, but then the entire second line and a bunch of the d got injured at the worst possible time.

[sureLoss]

News Update

Nick Kypreos @RealKyper
Hearing Boudreau price starts at 4 yrs in the ballpark of 12M. Per @FriedgeHNIC sounding like #Wild front runners