[PGT] Red Wings 4 Flames 3

[blankall]

Originally Posted by dino7c

year one of rebuild...1 goal loss to detroit that was the fault of goal tending.


get a grip!

No doubt. This game is not going to be the dark point of this season. Welcome to the rebuild.

[timbit]

Originally Posted by Metro Gnome

The stats you deride as "obscure" appear that way because you are ignorant of them, not because they aren't of value. The value of possession in the modern game in terms of predicting success isn't an "opinion"; it's an established fact which has been proven and re-proven over and over again.

I actually watch the games by the way. Often, more than once. I've tracked and collated scoring chances on the Flames for 4 years. Im a published hockey analyst. Im accredited by the team.

Out of the two of us, the one who has the "worthless fan opinions" is you.

So moving forward, you are taking Backlund over Colborne?

[dying4acup]

For all the people who talk about trading savard and St. Louis. I say congratulation! 10 years later! Has anyone praised the flames for actually getting a 4th rounder for Dustin Boyd?

Backlund is getting tough love. The thing is that if Monahan is going to be on this team, then Backlund and Stajan are going to be started in the defensive zone the most part.
If the flames want a good return for Stajan, padding his stats will help.

So Backlund gets tough duty this year. He will be better for it. Still believe he is here for the long run.

And for those having issues with Hartley? He hates young guys? But monahan has been promised 16min? And hey why is TJ Brodie playing top minutes?

At the end of the season this team will be close to the bottom of the standings. We all expected that(despite hoping for better). Hartley will be judged on the performance and development of monahan and Brodie, as well as Backlund, colborne, Bouma, butler and which ever players are called up from the AHL.

It looks like madness, but, as much as I didn't like the hire, I think he knows what he is doing. He has this team playing a system, and playing hard. Nobody has said that for 3yrs.

[Caged Great]

The problem with Backlund is fans expectations of him. He is Calgary's version of Alex Steen (prior to his breakout this year). A very reliable defensive center that has some offensive upside. Steen was a 40-50 point two way center in years past while being one of the top 3rd line centers in the league. Backlund doesn't quite have the same level of offensive skill as Steen, but it's incumbent on the coaching staff to try whatever they can with him to get him into a better place in the offensive zone. Making him fight for his opportunities will make him better. Accountability is important with young players otherwise you get an Edmonton situation.

I hope Backlund does get pissed. He plays a lot better when he is pissed.

[KootenayFlamesFan]

That 3rd goal by Joey Mac was just....................horrible.

Can hardly wait until this team gets an NHL goalie again.

[Caged Great]

Originally Posted by KootenayFlamesFan

That 3rd goal by Joey Mac was just....................horrible.

Can hardly wait until this team gets an NHL goalie again.

Do we see all of Brossoit, Ortio and Berra at the NHL level at some point this year? (Maybe not Brossoit, but I could see the other two get a shot)

[KootenayFlamesFan]

Originally Posted by Caged Great

Do we see all of Brossoit, Ortio and Berra at the NHL level at some point this year? (Maybe not Brossoit, but I could see the other two get a shot)

Berra got the hook recently with the Heat IIRC. I'm hoping Gillies becomes that goalie in the future, but who knows. As for the present, the situation is pretty sad. MacDonald is a career backup with the odd great moment but overall looks pretty poor, Ramo is more of the unknown who can scare the bejeezus out of you at times.

Neither is a great option. I think we have to just sit back and watch the drama unfold, unless the Flames can somehow snag a solid young goalie who is ready to take the crease over.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

...Unlike most here I'm not that high on Backlund as I feel he's not going to amount to much more than he is so I don't have an issue with Hartley challenging him to be better because he's not living up to his draft status quite frankly.

I tend to agree with most of what you have posted in this thread, but with Backlund, I'm not sure what you were expecting, or why. He was a late first-round pick in a barely average draft year. Compared to his peers, he seems to be doing just fine: on par with those picked in the same vicinity, ahead of a few, behind a handful of players who were selected after him. More or less what any reasonable person would expect from a player like him. It was always going to be a draft success so long as he carves out a respectable career as a NHL player. Anything above or beyond that is gravy.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by nik-

Oh totally, if you just pretend that last year didn't even happen. He's not a good coach, but I was ok with him being here because he's positive. However, if this BS faux meritocracy crap keeps happening, then I don't even think he has that going for him.

I think most of the problem here is that we don't know enough about the meritocracy to be able to effectively evaluate whether or how it works from merely watching the games. The coaches undoubtedly base their decisions on a variety of criteria—many of which are likely to be different from player-to-player. This is a matter of seeing the product without REALLY having any idea about the process or the internal goals of the organisation.

So, for anyone to complain about the "meritocracy" is really silly, without first knowing anything about it. The problem is, none of us does.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Metro Gnome

I actually watch the games by the way. Often, more than once. I've tracked and collated scoring chances on the Flames for 4 years. Im a published hockey analyst. Im accredited by the team.

Out of the two of us, the one who has the "worthless fan opinions" is you.

[Sample00]

I'll typically be the first to support goaltenders, having been one myself and having a son that's one but watching MacDonald play even makes me cringe.

Yes, he's made some spectacular saves but he's also let in some goals that really make you question his fundamentals of the position. On the third goal, his ass should have been firmly planted by the post. Left leg straight up and down, pad tucked against the post, glove up, slightly angled towards the shooter. Right leg butterfly down, pulled in tight to the skate of the left leg.
Any goalie, peewee/bantam up knows this.

His rebound control is atrocious...in ANY game i have watched him play.

At this point in his career, I'm not sure that he can change his style, even having Malarchuk as his coach. I am all in favour of cutting him loose and bringing up Berra. Split the games between Ramo and Berra and see who's got it and who doesnt. We arent winning anything this year anyways, so let the kids fight it out.

Just as a side note, Ramo has his deficiencies as well but I still think you can work with him and fix the little things.

Just my two cents

[devo22]

I was disappointed with Backlunds treatment yesterday. Hartley scratched him for being unproductive offensively and then he pairs him with Bouma and MacGrattan ... seriously?! Most of his 8 (EIGHT!) minutes were on the PK too. I get that Monahan needs to play 16 minutes and that you have to showcase Stajan, but Colborne averaged 20 (TWENTY!) minutes per game over the last two games. I like Colborne and his size is a good advantage to have, but it's not like he has played completely lights out. Has he earned playing more than 6 minutes like earlier in the season? Sure! But has he earned playing 20 minutes per game? Nah.

what I really don't get is the thing with the powerplay. There's that old saying that doing the same things over and over again and expecting different results is insanity. When your PP goes 0 for 16 or something, why be so stubborn and still roll the same lines when it's so obviously not working? Again, Hartley went with Glencross-Stajan/Colborne-Cammalleri and Hudler-Monahan-Jones all the time, with no results. At some point, you have to change it up. Why don't throw out Backlund, Baertschi and Galiardi for a change? It's not that they could have done anything less than Hartleys favourite PP lines.

what also irks me about Hartley: the whole benching/scratching punishment to send a message is utter BS if you don't apply the same rules to all the players. Benching Backs for that stupid penalty or scratching him or Sven to send a message is fine to me, as long as the vets get the same treatment. But it's frustrating when Glencross produces a horrible giveaway on the PK which leads to a PRIME scoring opportunity for Detroit, and he doesn't get punished at all. I think Glencross was back on the ice a shift later ... it's a horrible message to send: the younger guys get punished for mistakes and the veterans have an unlimited amount of get-out-of-the-jail free cards. Every play died on Jones' stick yesterday too, and he still gets a huge amount of PP time.

[Burner]

Originally Posted by KootenayFlamesFan

Berra got the hook recently with the Heat IIRC. I'm hoping Gillies becomes that goalie in the future, but who knows. As for the present, the situation is pretty sad. MacDonald is a career backup with the odd great moment but overall looks pretty poor, Ramo is more of the unknown who can scare the bejeezus out of you at times.

Neither is a great option. I think we have to just sit back and watch the drama unfold, unless the Flames can somehow snag a solid young goalie who is ready to take the crease over.

agree with you on this - however I think Ramo has room to improve - he has shown in the KHL that he has the mental ability to carry a team and provide consistent goaltending. Needs to find that now here in the NHL - hopefully he can

MacD shows what he is - a career backup so I hope the Flames give Ramo the chance to show if he can take the next step or not

[Phil Russell]

Patience people. We are a dozen games into a rebuild. Allow yourself to be entertained for a change. Enjoy the youth, the try, the development and don't whine about the fact that we haven't developed a number one goalie a dozen games into our rebuild. Do whine about the new jerseys.

[moon]

Originally Posted by dino7c

year one of rebuild...1 goal loss to detroit that was the fault of goal tending.


get a grip!

The first two goals are scored on pretty much every goalie in the NHL and had more to do with Flames defenders leaving guys wide open. The 4th goal had a lot to do with the terrible giveaway by Brodie and great shot (although could have been saved by a better goalie).

The 3rd goal was bad and at 2-2 the Flames have a better shot at winning, but way too much is being made about bad goaltending and that is being used to ignore some bad defensive play on 3 of the goals.

[Da_Chief]

Backlund need to switch to wing.

[moon]

Originally Posted by dying4acup

It looks like madness, but, as much as I didn't like the hire, I think he knows what he is doing. He has this team playing a system, and playing hard. Nobody has said that for 3yrs.

That's all people were saying for 3 years with Sutter, the problem was they didn't like that system.

If what we have seen from Hartley is guys playing his "system" then time for him to go because that system seems to rely on or just flat out ignore leaving guys wide open in the defensive zone.

He has done a good job of getting guys to play hard and give a ton of effort but it doesn't look like he has done much in terms of getting the team to play a solid or effective system out there.

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by moon

That's all people were saying for 3 years with Sutter, the problem was they didn't like that system.

If what we have seen from Hartley is guys playing his "system" then time for him to go because that system seems to rely on or just flat out ignore leaving guys wide open in the defensive zone.

He has done a good job of getting guys to play hard and give a ton of effort but it doesn't look like he has done much in terms of getting the team to play a solid or effective system out there.

The system must be the problem. Can't be the great d we have

[moon]

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

The system must be the problem. Can't be the great d we have

Could be both.

Either way their are way too many guys who are left wide open which should not happen no matter how bad the defensemen are.

[strombad]

The only problem I have with people jumping on Hartley is this:

We have a bad team. Everyone here expected us to do VERY poorly. However, instead of that we are doing just below average, and what is the ONE thing everyone has been saying? That we are playing EXCITING hockey. Why do we think that is? Magic? That's Hartley. You may not like him sitting a guy here or there, you may not like his system of meritocracy because you don't understand it, but I don't see anyone complaining about the exciting, up-tempo, entertaining brand of Flames hockey we are being presented with.

Let's face it, we're going to lose games. We're going to get shelled a few times. We currently have 2 top 4 guys in our D-corps, and the rest are bottom pairing guys AT BEST. Goaltending? We have a third string guy who couldn't outplay JONAS GUSTAVSSON, and a KHL goalie who while being admirable, flops all over the ice and is taking extra time to get used to the game.

Point is, we're going to lose. We're going to lose a lot. People just need to step back and quit calling for the head of the coach every time there is something they don't like. Nitpicking things like "well Colborne deserves more than 6 minutes but less than 20" and "Backlund is starting in the defensive zone too much" is a little silly. Colborne earned his minutes. On a team of extremely average centers, he's been playing the best. Backlund? Average. I could MAYBE see moving him to the third line and Stajan to the 4th, but he hasn't played any better than that.

People just need to relax on the whole coach thing. The problems on this team run far deeper than Hartley's line combinations. We should be a little bit thankful that this is the most entertaining hockey we've seen in half a decade.